General Speaker Advice and Recommendations

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by shotgunshane, Mar 7, 2017.

  1. murphythecat

    murphythecat GRU-powered uniformed trumpkin

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    why would it be worse? Pascal module are nothing special.

    Ive never followed the idea that active is better then passive. it seems people who use active will always say that and I know the theory and reasoning why its debated as being superior, but all my experience seem to show that passive is more musical.
     
  2. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

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    If a particular wood was "the best" then I feel like any high-end studio monitor would use that; price obviously isn't a concern here. Think SCM150ASL Pro, what are they using for their cabinets?
     
  3. elmoe

    elmoe Friend

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    Meh the science will vary depending on the type of MDF/plywood used, thickness, and so many other factors that saying one sounds better than the other is impossible to determine for sure unless you're building more or less identical speakers with each material, which nobody in their right mind has done. Same goes for saying active is better than passive or vice versa, it depends on what you're comparing and even if you take TOTL setups for both youre still comparing apples to oranges.

    Anyone so set on debating that passive or active is better is full of it, because that's not what matters.
     
  4. Poleepkwa

    Poleepkwa Friend

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    MDF is a way more consistent material the plywood in density and structured. The main reason manufacturers use MDF is because it does not contract or expand due to temperature or moisture as real wood does. It is easier to work with and considerably cheaper. Plywood is less dense , but stiffer and can withstand stress better. Pro cab makers use both MDF and plywood, but most large cabs are made of plywood for its lightness, as you can use thinner plywood that MDF.
     
  5. murphythecat

    murphythecat GRU-powered uniformed trumpkin

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    I dunno man. Marine grade birch plywood, I have been told, is the best material for speaker building. MDF is quite behind. but in all fairness, MDF can do a damn good job. its all about the design, bracing, thickness, really. but if we have to be absolute, marine grade birch plywood is better then mdf

    again,
    what diy speaker kit you ever compared to the Adam a7x or KRK?
     
  6. shanchandi

    shanchandi Acquaintance

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    Vanatoos look like something I'd like, the transparent 1 encore just barely falls under my budget so I'm gonna try to audition that

    I've been super curious about getting a speaker kit or building a firstwatt but always wondered if the shipping to get it to Canada would defeat the point.. it also worries me buying a speaker I can't hear before buying but if the value proposition is as high as you say it might be worth taking the leap.

    Thanks for the CAM links also, they opened my eyes to posts I was scrolling by before

    Haha yeah I got that, I'm unfamiliar with speakers but from what I've found while looking around, and from what I'm hearing here, there aren't a lot of great options that are more substantial than budget (lsr305 and friends) but still within my price range for desktop use.

    And if that's the case I'd rather just hold off, get some micca bookshelves and use my old ass Onkyo receiver for a couple more months, maybe I'll get a budget bump for Christmas
     
  7. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    Density matters, right? Does anyone have the numbers on that? I'm useless at wood, but my suspicion is that mdf probably beats plywood or even solid woods unless, maybe, something like teak. Because it is compressed wood and glue.

    And plywood tends to have voids in it, which can't be good. Someone in the know once explained to me the difference between ordinary and marine plywood: not the mahogany layers, which I thought marine ply was
    about. He said, actually its more about the glue than the wood, and no voids. Which might be completely irrelevant to speaker discussion! :oops:

    Due to my ineptitude with wood, DIY would not be a good option for me. I'd never make the damn things straight, let alone with well-fitting joints. And every imagined audio glitch would be blamed on my workmanship paranoia. I admire the people who do it, and have heard some really nice things, including DIY projects that were relatively simple and low-cost.
     
  8. Riotvan

    Riotvan Snoofer in the Woofer

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    I suck at wood working too, i mean it's functional but it's usually a bit off and not something i would use for a speaker. If i'm going to build a speaker i'll let someone else do it with a cnc machine. Clamping, glue and crossovers i can do no problem.

    I could probably do an open baffle if i would attempt the woodwork myself, seems simple enough.
     
  9. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

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    MDF is used in mass prod because of ease of machinability given by its uniformity in all principal axis. Plywood is a bitch to mill <-- expensive to manufacture parts from it.
    Surface quality, where the layers are showing is difficult to handle for aesthetics, whereas with mdf you can simply paint it.

    Good quality mdf is not any cheaper than good quality plywood, at least here (birch is abundant here).
    In many key properties; like tensile strength, rapture strength, resistance to wear, susceptibilty to moisture; birch plywood is probably better.
    Laminated mdf can be more rigid.

    From purely acoustical pov; density, rigidity and internal damping are more or less in the same ball park for both, really depends on the exact plywood (there is a lot of variation even for birch) and how dense the mdf is, it can reach hdf spec sometimes.

    Pro-s use mdf for better sound! Where is the evidence?
    Has the same speaker been ever made out of one and the other, other things kept equal?
    Show us a prototype / diy evaluation of this. For commercial grade this is imagination-land.
    This sort of speculation leads astray.

    Even totl speakers have target BOM and manufacturing cost. When 5% can be saved, it will be pocketed without hesitation.

    There is much more to it than meets the eye. I say both can result in excellent results when the builder knows what he's doing.
    How thought through is the bracing layout? How thick the layer material is, bent or flat, coated with something interesting, extra vibration damping, resonators? These things matter more in real life than the fine properties of the material itself.
    Bottom line is: from cheap mediocre material very good results can arise with well thought out design.
    Only when these things are sorted there can be a point to look for fine material features for that last 0.5% of performance, or taste.

    For diy plywood is preferred for it's less harmful dust. The mdf dust is not nice.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2019
  10. sphinxvc

    sphinxvc Gear Master (retired)

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    The Vanatoo I heard at the recent NY audio show impressed me. There was a sub, but as a 2.1 system it outdueled a lot of the big speakers there in bass response.

    I don't think you need to worry about wood type or whether the amp is inside or outside the speaker.
     
  11. Ziva

    Ziva Friend

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    I recently acquired a pair of JBL 4628b locally for what seemed like a good price. I have single driver speakers and was looking for some variety and a bit more bass impact.

    The 4628b were part of the Cabaret series. The frequency range seemed similar to the 4698b @purr1n has written about. The crossover seems different. They were intended for keyboard/reinforcement http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/Cabaret_Series2.pdf
    http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Cabaret Series/4628B.pdf

    I hooked them up to a Saga/Aegir. They seem a bit muddy or closed in and have less bass articulation than I would have thought for 15” woofers. They alternate between sounding pretty good and not very good. I also think they may have given me a headache, but I don’t know why (they aren’t strident, and I don’t play at very loud levels).

    I can’t find too much useful information - some threads say not for home use, others say they work great for home use (like the 4698/4699 debates). Some debate as to what the cross over points are.

    The previous owner said he was the original owner and used them for his home studio - he plays keyboard. Everything looks to be in good shape, other than a crack in the plastic mounting for the high frequency driver.

    Any thoughts on whether these can be tweaked or refurbished to work for home use would be greatly appreciated.
     
  12. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    That is probably the single most important quality for speaker components, and for the entire speaker ;) :D

    But apart from that...

    Thanks for your down-to-earth and practical summary.

    :)
     
  13. MrTeaRex

    MrTeaRex His head's not fat, he's my brother!

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  14. elmoe

    elmoe Friend

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    That's interesting. Have you heard these? You'd think resonance would be an issue but they claim their LRM material is actually better than wood or MDF. I'd be curious to hear these.
     
  15. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    LRM... Low resonance materials... cast iron sounds so much better when you give it an acronym. MDF sounds fancier than sawdust and glue after all. The curved geometry will reduce reflections yes, but I doubt the little domes inside do much other than increase complexity and cost. Iif they were a little longer, maybe, but notice they show a fancy CAD of the domes (which is pointless) but no analysis of sound/pressure/etc inside the cavity.

    So that all said, you've got a cabinet that is heavy and stiffer than any wood could hope to be. From a physics viewpoint, that's good. From an acoustics standpoint, they haven't really said much.
     
  16. elmoe

    elmoe Friend

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    Right, I poked through the website but couldn't find all that much technical info on sound. Still curious, cant say I hate the looks.
     
  17. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

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    Can we just all please agree that if we all bought Gryphon products, our lives would be complete?
     
  18. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    No because then we'd want better speakers thirty seconds later.
     
  19. MrTeaRex

    MrTeaRex His head's not fat, he's my brother!

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    Yes, they were at RMAF last year. The salesman banging on random blocks of materials like MDF, plywood, and iron with a hammer was more engaging than the speakers themselves.
     
  20. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Can you take measurements 1m away with a wand microphone leveled at the tweeter? Muddy or bad bass articulation could be messed up mids or the highs, not necessarily the lows. The diaphragms on the tweeters do get old and need to be replaced at some point - hopefully with JBL parts. The no-name replacement diaphragms are garbo. Beware of Ebay "JBL" parts.

    The E145 15" woofer has a Qts of 0.26 and a big magnet. Assuming everything else is working right, the system should not be muddy. Can you open up the cab, disconnect wires from the woofer, and take a resistance reading?

    As for home use or non-home use talk, my advice is to ignore it unless someone can give you a compelling reason. Parroting JBL sales material is not a compelling reason. Non-owners imagining how they must sound in a home is also not compelling. Remember, the Internet is full of morons with zero experience who want to give people their two cents. JBL marketing had their reasons for steering their customers in certain directions; but honestly is no such thing as speaker made for home or made for instruments as long as they cover the range of human hearing accurately.

    Same thing with crossover points. The stock passive crossovers used good parts, and crossover points of this speaker should not concern you unless the original owner screwed with them or you are actually biamping with an active crossover. Anyone talking about crossover points with these speakers is a moron, unless they can give you a compelling reason (like with measurements) why it should be one way or another. I doubt these Internet morons (who probably only know of these speakers from manuals or pictures, but never touched one) know more than Mark Gardner at JBL who designed these speakers.

    By the way, audiophile morons with limited or no knowledge and experience with the various JBL lines across decades are the worst people to listen to. Some JBL lines are good and some are less good, and even within the lines, it comes down to specific models. However, at the end of the day, you may just not like the sound and prefer the more traditional skinny HiFi speakers of today. The mids on these JBLs don't decay as fast as today's drivers that use exotic materials with steeper xover slopes.

    I suspect worn buttcheek tweeter diaphragms. Broken drivers will give anyone a headache. Also, check the wiring to make sure the lugs didn't fall off the terminals on the xover board or drivers.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2019

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