Good sound quality with streaming is not possible without using optical fiber

Discussion in 'Audio Science' started by econaut, Aug 14, 2022.

  1. Woland

    Woland Friend

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    Keep up the good fight. Many audiophiles think analog rationales should work with digital signals. They don't and unfortunately that means people looking for informed advice get lured into buying LPS, expensive streamers, cables, isolators and so forth with no possible benefit. Synergistic and Co laugh all the way to the bank.

    On a good day the music sounds better. Maybe some audiophiles get that good day feeling when a shiny yet pointless new toy is delivered. But it's better to make the day a good one by donating the expense to a worthwhile cause, saving for a rainy day or paying off debt.
     
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    Last edited: Aug 16, 2022
  2. k4rstar

    k4rstar Britney fan club president

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    I am wondering how bored you have to be to come onto an audio forum and deny other people's experiences based on your own opinions. Your post is an opinion and no matter how much you would like it to be fact, it cannot be, as it contradicts the independent experiences of thousands of individuals. Our world is made of up of subtle and un-subtle realities and sound reproduction is a complex field of subtle perception. Your opinion of what is and is not possible with audio over IP may hold true for unsubtle reality but have no bearing on subtle reality.

    Share experiences instead of opinions if you would like to help people. If you are not interested in helping people and only want to ego stroke based on dogma, do not post as your posts will only have a net negative karmic consequence.

    I am not sure how moral grandstanding about how people should spend their time and money in a subjective hobby that concerns subtle perception is 'the good fight'.
     
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  3. Woland

    Woland Friend

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    I sincerely apologise for contributing to the derailing of an excellent thread on 2022 Texas Audio. Could I suggest admins carve out the messages from econaut onward into a new thread.
     
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  4. nishan99

    nishan99 Friend

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    I was researching the topic trying to hear all parties and then came across this… wow.

    [​IMG]
     
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  5. animus

    animus Almost "Made"

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    Clearly, audio is important life-or-death bzns.
     
  6. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    Yes, please, let us be sent off to the sin bin, realists and dreamers alike.

    But as my final word, to be shifted there too, Nobody is a network guru, unless they have studied and/or work with networking. Never go to audio sites for network guru stuff, unless you take care to read the posts of the real engineers who you will find, both here and in other places. One does not get to be network guru by playing with some wires and thinking, right or wrong, that one hears a difference.

    I am not a network guru. I used to know the basics of TCP/IP etc, and the physical facts of how to connect stuff to make it work. That's sooooo far from being a guru. I sometimes needed gurus, and called them in. I was like a child, watching them work. And yet, no not audiophiles, audiophools, think they know better.

    Enough. I've left sites because of this sort of bollocks discussion, and I'm a fool to weigh in again here!



    EDIT... In cooler state of mind, the sheer rudeness seems uncalled for. Apologies.
     
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    Last edited: Aug 17, 2022
  7. Azimuth

    Azimuth FKA rtaylor76, Friend

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    I was just reading through this and caught this and it seems very controversial given the mixed reactions from members here. And for good reason.

    I think you are talking about error detection and correction that happens with data packets over TCP/IP networks. I think you have over simplified, and it still happens over wi-fi.

    I think mostly with this thread is that how “noise” is introduced in the final S/PDIF is getting confused and construed.

    There are some free intro to networking stuff about networks and it is pretty crazy how all those packets get to your computer at all. And then all the cache and processing noise to put the puzzle back together. But essentially noise and jitter can happen at any stage.
     
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  8. Beefy

    Beefy Friend

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    But then, at the very final stage of network streaming, it all goes through a big fat hardware or software buffer. And in good equipment the clock and transmitter are powered by very well uncoupled power supplies. And the signal heads out through an isolation transformer. And the signal usually meets another isolation transformer in the DAC.

    Does all the upstream network jitter and noise ever accumulate to enough of an extent that it can affect the final/isolated/buffered portions of a digital audio transmission? I remain highly skeptical. But I certainly don't have the wherewithal to argue about it today.
     
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  9. Azimuth

    Azimuth FKA rtaylor76, Friend

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    I would just say that it was not long ago before we had all these things as you say...uncoupled power supplies, isolation transformers, asynchronous clocks, etc. Heck, you can get noise on S/DIF direct from a CD player.

    I only mention the network noise since we were all talking about streamers and Pi's and to me, the best plan with a Pi for audio is clean power, low power, and turning off things unneeded, like WiFi and BT and even HDMI. I think I even set mine for 100T instead of Gigabit since there is no reason for Gigabit speeds and only causes more errors and more noise to process. And then I just don't think about it anymore. Only so much you can do and then might wind up chasing ghosts. Most of it is not worth even worrying about.
     
  10. Beefy

    Beefy Friend

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    I made a comment the other day that people love the ritual of vinyl. I also think when those people switch over to digital, they create new rituals. I mean, I personally can't think of anything more tedious than listening to single vs multi mode fibre. Whatever floats someone's boat, I guess.

    FWIW, in my experience WiFi can be bad for entirely unrelated reasons. The input tube on my Crack did a great job of picking up WiFi beacons, even when WiFi wasn't being used in the chain. I had to shield the input tube and move my router.
     
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  11. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    I call bullshit on your characterization of @Pancakes description of the basics of a TCP/IP network (and normative audio PCM/DSD data carried over it) @k4rstar . Pancakes is right in fact, and these facts are in no way opinion. Now, the relevancy of these facts might be in question, but your seemingly radical subjectivist defense of ORFAS networking ignorance and snake oil is in no way a rational critique of any relevance Pancakes facts might have. "subtle reality", bah!

    @econaut's problem is that he waded in with references to Computer Style (or whatever it is called these days) and Head-Fi where the noise is much higher than the signal. All sorts of ORFAS dreamers post in these free-for-all's claiming fact when all they have is ignorant opinion. To his credit he did reference work done here by Marv and others around USB, but in this case the situation is a combination of a transmission protocol/implementation (USB) and an actual physical implementation in specific DACs/computers. The "subtle reality" of these complexities too often leads to "See! USB is the BEST protocol!" and other audiophoolish assertions. In @econaut 's case, he latched on to his particular success with TCP/IP over fiber optic and made a general recommendation that it is a fundamental improvement for audio over networks which is bullshit. In any particular physical implementation, as @Beefy and others noted Wifi (and yes 'wired' ethernet because it is normally transformer isolated) accomplishes the same thing that he was attributing to fiber.

    In any case, I might be coming across as harsh but really the signal-to-noise level of this conversation is not SBAF worthy...
     
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  12. econaut

    econaut Almost "Made"

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    I understand the scepticism, because in general this is a good approach when it is somehow balanced with openmindedness and curiosity how things are. For example I once believed for a few hours or days that the moon landing was a hoax, but then I did some research and it was easy to debunk this conspiracy tale. With cables it's kind of the other way around. Not long ago I thought it was ridiculous that cables should make a difference, and even after demoing a few speaker cables and interconnects at home where I did not hear a difference I stayed open minded and some time later with a different setup and different cables there's an improvement, but it's what I would call small (not medium, not subtle). Again, two channel setup. Before I could hear the difference between SE and balanced with headphones, but that's a different explanation than just a different cable.

    If you stay interested, I recommend the white paper by Uptone Audio on digital audio and noise I posted on page one.

    If you prefer video, Hans Beekhuyzen has several videos on this topic. Maybe this is a good start:

    Honestly, I have a hard time understanding these technical things. But when they somewhat make sense to me and there are many detailed reports by many people on improvements, I am open to try things myself and sometimes I hear a night and day difference, sometimes medium, sometimes small and sometimes no difference at all. And sometimes it's so subtle I don't know if it is placebo or not.

    Not that's a misunderstanding. I rarely do critical listening. It's a "manageable amount" of fun. But if I don't like how something sounds then I "need" to find a solution by swapping components and tweaking. Unfortunately, sometimes an upgrade at one place needs further adjustment somewhere else in the setup.

    So again, the issue of single mode fiber only popped up, because I didn't like the sound of multi mode fiber (or the respective TP-LINK SFPs). I didn't know this was a thing until I asked if someone knew how to fix the lifeless and dull sound (which was great on the other hand, because it was as smooth as it ever was). I am pretty sure, everyone in this forum would hear the difference. Not much critical listening needed (in my system).

    I believe external clocks would make a further difference/improvement. But I don't want to go down that rabbit hole. As far as I can tell rather small improvements and some people prefer the sound without. They are also very expensive. Too expensive to just try it out like it's possible with optical fiber.
     
  13. Riotvan

    Riotvan Snoofer in the Woofer

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    What i’ve heard with my streamer which is a miniDSP SHD studio hooked up to an Yggdrasil A2 is that wifi sounded cleaner than cat6 but cat7 cable sounds just as good as wifi. Better blackground and less noise. If it is placebo or not i don’t know but i spent 15€ for the cat7 cable and i don’t care either way. It is more stable than wifi.
    Maybe the cat6 cable was damaged. I tested back and forth with cat6 and wifi and cat7 and wifi but not cat6 and cat7 because i’m too lazy.
     
  14. econaut

    econaut Almost "Made"

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    I understand your criticism and let me try to answer.

    First, I did not reference Head-Fi, but only SBAF and audiophilestyle.

    Yes, I have only limited direct experience with optical fiber (only in my system) so making a general recommendation is maybe bold.

    But what I hear corresponds with what other people are writing what they hear (and there are technical explanations for it). As far as I can tell this is the way how SBAF is intended, only that here more guys know each other, which is a great thing and I would most definitely prefer: listening together and talking about it.

    Back to topic and starting from scratch:

    Do we agree that different USB implementations sound different?

    Gen3, Gen5 and Unison in Schiit DACs, for example.

    I am trying to find the common ground and then where the dissent is.
     
  15. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    This is the poser who swallowed Bob Stuart's MQA snake oil hook, line, and sinker. In other words he's part of the whole ORFAS circus. He may or may not have an actual technical grasp of the relevancy of jitter, but that is besides the point because he is trying to sell you stuff by posing as an authority. Your better off trying to understand what @atomicbob and others here have to say about the relevancy of jitter @econaut
     
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    Last edited: Aug 17, 2022
  16. k4rstar

    k4rstar Britney fan club president

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    I don't believe you are any authority on the topic, and your attitude is a great reminder of why I rarely read/post on this forum anymore.

    If you do not understand the concept of subtle reality, I recommend you leave your house and go lie in the tallest grass you can find for a period of no less than 10 minutes. I understand you willingly spend a lot of your free time arguing about audio and politics with strangers on the internet, so this suggestion may come as alien and alarming to you. However I assure you that after 10 minutes your soul will begin to heal and you will begin to ponder the mystery of nature. After that, the subject of whether or not someone can hear a difference in ethernet switches will become quite trite and not worth getting so worked up about.

    Get a grip.
     
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  17. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    What "other people"? Random ORFAS posters on ComputerStyle? We don't care, and neither should you. I could probably back up cable risers made from gold plated dog shit by citing "other people" from ComputerStyle.

    Your technical explanation is insufficient (i.e. "galvanic isolated" thus reducing network induced "jitter" is in fact very typical and banal in the audio marketing world) and in all likelihood wrong. Not to say that you don't like the sound of your particular fiber implementation (again, probably not for the reasons you think), but as others have noted wifi and wired ethernet presents the equivalent "galvanic" isolation.

    It's not about whether they sound different - they do. It's specific and general "technical recommendations" made on false assumptions as to why they sound different. Any specific implementation of USB (e.g. Schiit's series) is a complex system, and in any case the relevancy of upstream TCP/IP (starting with the source, say Tidal through the internet to your ISP then your LAN) is for practical purposes beside the point.

    I spent 20 years as an actual network/systems admin, so fact is I am an authority on the subject - certainly more than you are. As to the rest of your rant and the "sound" of network switches BAH! ;)
     
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  18. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    I do have an open mind, although I don't have a great deal of of active interest, having exhausted it on those discussions long ago. However, as per the more polite part of my previous post, I do choose my sources more carefully than many.

    Archimago, linked to above, has, among other things, shown an example of the need to isolate [I think it was] a USB connection, as that specific instance caused an audible buzz. I think that the link given, in fact, refers to his experiment in which a battery-powered device shows 60kHz noise as soon as the ethernet is plugged in. It proves a point --- but it was at inaudible levels.

    Should I admit, around here, that I used to buy the Stereophile Magazine! OK, so I was young and foolish in those days, but it is only recently that I abandoned it altogether. The sister-mag Absolute Sound, on the other hand... We are talking about that Fremmer, rag, right? If I am not getting these things confused? Again, I can only say, Oh dear!

    This is SBAF. If we are going to unreservedly open the doors to all that stuff, we might as well welcome Amir with open arms. Personally, I don't.
     
  19. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    Without clicking on the link, this little tidbit just reveals the complexities and the problem with drawing general recommendations. Which would you rather have, an decrapified (aka "isolated", reclocked with latest alien sub-atomic clock, regenerated, battery powered and re-imaged) USB source into a a Schiit gen 3/5 or or an average laptop (with average "noise") direct into Unison? 4/5 SBAFer's would go with the latter, but 4/5 Audiophools who populate ComputerStyle would go with the former. They make all sorts of claims about what the "hear", but at the same time they cite the usual ORFAS authorities (e.g. Absolute Sound, Hans Beekhuyzen, etc.)...
     
  20. Beefy

    Beefy Friend

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    Now how does that quote go.... "have an open mind, but not an empty head"
     

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