Good sound quality with streaming is not possible without using optical fiber

Discussion in 'Audio Science' started by econaut, Aug 14, 2022.

  1. penguins

    penguins Friend, formerly known as fp627

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    Seems like this topic is going to be much like the rest of audio - will ultimately have to listen to determine what's best for ourselves.

    With the few DIY amps I've messed around with, I know a lot of stuff that shouldn't have made much or any difference on paper or just didn't make sense on paper sounded really good when listening and vice versa. I've also had the same gear sound subtly different in difference places with different power, chains, etc.

    Similarly, at this point I wouldn't be surprised if there was a similar parallel for network gear and streaming. Based on my limited knowledge of networking and "internet protocol", I've also always imagined this was pretty inconsequential as long as everything worked properly and the equipment was both physically and electrically isolated, or at least as much as possible within reason. But after reading through this thread, I kind of want to explore this eventually... one day...
     
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  2. iFi audio

    iFi audio MOT iFi Audio

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    With network switches and routers that's the funny thing. They provide network so that we can use our smartphones/tablets as convenient remote control devices, so aren't in the audio chain. In theory they shouldn't affect sound quality, but this hobby of ours never stops surprising me :)
     
  3. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    Let's get big on the metaphors here: go right to the top! All the way to god!

    I'm an atheist, but not a materialist. If people tell me they saw god, I do not believe them. Well, I do believe them... I believe they had some sort of genuine utterly mind-blowing experience. What I doubt is their interpretation.

    Whether it's my, your, or others' experiences, I often feel the same about those differences we hear in audio.

    That's a shame. LOL. I wish the thread would have the opposite effect on people!

    :sail:
     
  4. Gazny

    Gazny MOT: ETA Audio

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    Recently went to my in-laws. They just got solar panels and a matching inverter.
    They have fiber internet but the power to the modem/router makes listening(or streaming video) pretty terrible.
    I suspect it might be a power issue rather than fiber ethernet but a combination of both could be true.

    Edit:
    If it is a power and clock issue why don't more companies just mod clocks in and remove most of the switchers inside.
    Well they do.
    For any deeper indulgence to this rabbit whole google the Buffalo BS-GS2016
    thumbnail_IMG_3380.jpg.22997807b8d2191216d5280328450a1c.jpg mobile01-9655c7fd19f8e8c9d485d5283c041011.jpg n1x2s77.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2022
  5. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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  6. Gazny

    Gazny MOT: ETA Audio

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    It is more than that thread. These are very expensive switches promoted on other forums too.
     
  7. Beefy

    Beefy Friend

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    The highlight for me was the audiophile capacitors bypassing some non-descript part of the power supply. Capacitors which, over 7-day burn in, made the soundstage much more open and airy. Nope, that's the point where I call bullshit, and they might as well be putting quantum crystals on the cables.
     
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  8. iFi audio

    iFi audio MOT iFi Audio

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    They're everywhere these days ;)
     
  9. Bobcat

    Bobcat Friend

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    Hate to say it, but all this reminds me of the hyper expensive power cords. Which are plugged into house wiring, running though a fuze panel which is plugged into god knows what. Last mile syndrome? How do you control for all the many switches and routers interposed between the streaming service and your POP? I propose that your final "mile" can mess things up, but it could hardly make it better.

    Rob
     
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  10. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    The entire post was audiophool catch-phrase bait. Utter bollocks.

    But mine was that some cable had been replaced with audio cable. Goodness knows what harm they might have done! It looks like the original manufacturer makes such fine kit that they offer the original purchaser a lifetime warranty against any hardware failure. It is probably very good stuff --- until some crap head like this 'Dark something or other' modifies it.

    Same game with any of the audiophool nonsense: heard differences between HDDS, NASs, etc, etc, bollocks-etc.

    There's a lot of it about. Sadly right. Have blissfully succeeded in escaping it for the last few years. Because, yes, it does upset me. Too much!

    For some sanity on this stuff, Archimago is a good source.
     
  11. earnmyturns

    earnmyturns Smartest friend

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    There's quite a distance between audiophoolery and small differences in audio quality attributable to uncontrolled electrical coupling between electrically connected components. I wish I could share past and current stories from my professional career where "bits are bits" circuitry misbehaves subtly because those pesky electromagnetic fields are harder to contain than designers hoped, but unfortunately most of them are proprietary.
     
  12. Beefy

    Beefy Friend

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    And how many of those stories involved burning in over seven days? Everything about it strains credibility and physics.
     
  13. earnmyturns

    earnmyturns Smartest friend

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    I'm not talking about silly fuses or audiophile caps, I'm talking about differences between different digital sources with different electrical characteristics. As for burn-in, I still remember from the first few data centers I worked with (in the 1970s and early 80s) how vendor engineers asked for newly installed circuit boards to be run on specific duty cycles for long enough to settle (or fail) before being put into service. And I have even more interesting very recent stories that unfortunately I cannot share.
     
  14. Garns

    Garns Friend

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    Indeed, I'm surprised this seems to be controversial. I could make the previous iteration of my system (yggdrasil and EC af) sound totally shit just by altering the geometry of how the different components were plugged into the mains, or by switching to different digital interconnects that connect the grounds in different ways. There was nothing particularly mystical about it, the treble became incredibly harsh. I know this because I spent like 3 years on a quest to make it less unlistenable and 90% of the improvement was dinking with grounds and power and EMI. DACs are so sensitive to this stuff it's not even funny.

    Another thing I learned is that anything which supposedly "isolates" a system doesn't make it immune to that thing, it just scales down its effect a bit. No magic wands. Much as even gear with well designed power supplies benefit from cleaner power.
     
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  15. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    Yes, there is. I accept that. And there is also quite a difference between professionals discussing such things, and people pretending to know about networking (let alone making modifications on the basis of their ignorance) and people that do actually know.

    In my admittedly-limited experience, ethernet is very resilient --- but if someone eg must wrap a cable around a fluorescent light fitting it can be screwed.

    That experience also extended to bringing a whole network down by wrongly changing the setting on one PC LAN card. Not sure, though: might have been pre-switch days, with hubs. maybe a switch would have isolated my idiocy.

    See also, Archimago on the 60hz blip*, on a battery-powered thing that disappeared when the ethernet was disconnected.

    But it apparently could not have been audible --- and if we get into spending $$$$ on eliminating such things, then that is something that I would have thought goes beyond SBAF ethos of what is considered sane and reasonable. Or, in other words, audible.



    *Archimago's Musings: MEASUREMENTS: On the value for ethernet "galvanic isolation"...
     
  16. Pancakes

    Pancakes Friend

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    Funny the lengths people will go to for that 0.01% improvement. All the while their entire chain goes through a terrible potentiometer. I'm not the first to discover this - I simply discovered it for *myself* only recently. I'm now on a quest to convert all pots to either stepped attenuators or AVCs. The difference is THAT non-subtle. I can't go back.

    ALPS blue (in 90+ % of all equipment) is total garbage.
     
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    Last edited: Aug 25, 2022
  17. earnmyturns

    earnmyturns Smartest friend

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    Ethernet *is* resilient. But ethernet was designed for computers, and then adopted by streamer/DAC manufacturers who seem to have variable skill in decoupling the most sensitive aspects of a DAC from ethernet's electromagnetic attributes. Even for purely digital circuits, analog characteristics can cause subtle issues when designs are pushed to the limit. DACs may seem "simple" (low switching speeds, low circuit complexity) but there's a lot that has to be done right for the lower-order bits. Here's a fun presentation I came across a while ago (no, I don't understand everything in it) by any means. Lots of fiddly stuff as bits become amplitudes...
     
  18. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    Streamer is a fancy name for computers that people only use for audio.

    Since when did audio push any modern computer to the limit? An old 386 (or even earlier) could probably manage audio (it was the operating systems of the day that gave problems) today --- on co-ax networking.

    OK, demands have increased hugely when it comes to video. Audio, not so much.
     
  19. earnmyturns

    earnmyturns Smartest friend

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    You keep quoting out of context. The issues are not within purely digital processing, but where they are being converted to analog amplitudes and EM interference can sneak in.
     
  20. Beefy

    Beefy Friend

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    But what's the mechanism for that interference to reach audibility? Not bit perfect? Jitter? Digital noise leaking into the analog chain?

    And one step further, what's the mechanism for a film cap burning in over 7-days, to audibility of soundstage specifically? You must understand the skepticism......
     

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