HD800 (S) Ultimate Mod

Discussion in 'Modifications and Tweaks' started by Maxx134, Apr 27, 2018.

?

Are you satisfied with HD800 bass?

  1. yes

    17 vote(s)
    25.0%
  2. Its ok

    18 vote(s)
    26.5%
  3. Not really

    16 vote(s)
    23.5%
  4. Hell no, I want planar bass

    20 vote(s)
    29.4%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. gixxerwimp

    gixxerwimp Professional tricycle rider

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    I wouldn't say it's hard, but it requires a bit of effort. After pulling off the bulk of it, you can use a ball of it to remove the bits that are stuck on, similar to the technique used to remove tape residue with a bit of tape. I mass loaded my T50RPs with Dynamat Xtreme and was able to return them to stock. The corners of the baffle were the hardest parts to clean up, so a flat surface should be easier to deal with. A plastic surface has more texture and the Dynamat will stick to it more. A smooth metal surface should be easier to clean up.

    Edit: I live in a warmer climate, so maybe that's why it was goopier for me to deal with than it seems to be for u guys.
     
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  2. ThePianoMan

    ThePianoMan Almost "Made"

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    I have very similar dynamat damping mods to you, and find they make the most difference, but the pad swap helps get rid of the pverly large headstage and also flattens out bass significantly and generally smooths treble peaks and valleys. I am of the opinion that a mire solid sidewalk tyoe material helps act almost like a soundtube for the hd800, and the additional cup volume reduces cup resonance by shifting where and how much the sound can bounce around. I might try comparing your tape modded pads to mine and see what the diff is.
     
  3. Maxx134

    Maxx134 no one will touch his boy parts without $$$

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    Having similar dynamat is not the same...
    I cannot stress enough to use Dynamat Extreme in specific location.

    Remember I do not suggest in any way to fill the unit up with Dynamat.

    The Dynamat Extreme is used in what is essentially two circle shapes.
    The shape of the driver edge to be exact, and for a specifically good exact reason.
    No guessing and splashing dynamat all over in less important areas.
    One in circular mass in front, and one behind.

    The idea is to stop the vibration at the source area (where driver meets structure).

    In order to do so, we place an almost equal and opposing mass in front and behind the driver(!) in the same locations...

    Not in any locations far away which do not have same effect.

    Think of the HD800 speaker as a car tire, in which the nuts are loose...it will vibrate.

    If you want to tighten, you must have TWO SIDES, or you can tighten forever without a rear surface to push up against.

    Same effect when you load only the rear with Dynamat,
    without doing the front.
    Your not getting optimal vibration attenuation.

    Think of a bell ringing and only touching the inside (rear) .
    It not stop same as pinching both sides...

    So what is done to the front, we need to do similarly to the rear,
    or it is not effective for the "horizontal plane" damping.

    Also, we are addressing damping in the "angled-plane" of the basket...

    If you take notice, the rear would have sligtly less dynamat mass than the front, because it is in a smaller circle.
    So there is a "line-of-sight "angle" between the inner and outer dynamat rings.
    This is also in line with the basket trajectory.

    So not only is the dynamat on both sides,
    but it is also on the inner and outer sides of its donut "ring radiator" in proportion to the angle of the basket...

    Physical (not diaphram sonics) Vibration is thus optinally attenuated in the angle of the structure,
    Which is essentially shaped like a megaphone,
    so would naturally amplify vibrations from the center (the driver)..

    We want the diaphragm sound vibration to not be transmitted to a structure induced vibration.


    So my point is, that although we are finally getting good results with SBAF carpet material, or the Pads mods,
    Or even the SDR insert & my "S" insert...

    They ALL are NOT addressing the root of the Problem.
    They work to work to "absorb" resulting sound.

    None are "Vibration control".

    Its like taking medicine for a cold to stop the symptoms, but adds its owm drowsy effects, and is not the actual cure.


    Only the Dynamat Extreme, "Anti-resonance Mod" will control the root of the Problem.

    It "sandwiches" the driver in the "horizintal & basket-angled planes",
    to attenuate the driver initial vibrations which are then transmitted along the basket,
    in similar way a horn speaker amplify.
    This is where we get the diffused exageratted soundstage.

    The lack of it being a "driver problem", was known here a long time,
    as Marvey pointed out in an old thread that the driver was not the cause of the ringing.

    This was known, and I remember BILL-P trying other, less resonant structures to his HD800.
    Also by replacing or covering the metal mesh screen.

    The issue there, is that the initial vibration from the driver edge,
    gets transformed and skewed into type of dispersion which are known in horn loaded speaker designs (because of cone shape basket).
    It is transmitted along the cone, making what is heard as a diffused exaggerated soundfield.

    Controlling the "initial" vibrations to structure is the key .
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2018
  4. Maxx134

    Maxx134 no one will touch his boy parts without $$$

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    If the desnsity (mass) of the HD800 design were increased,
    I don't believe we would be having these discussions,
    but then the HD800 would not be so light (think LCD weight lol)
     
  5. Maxx134

    Maxx134 no one will touch his boy parts without $$$

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    How have you placed your Dynamat?
    Is it the "Extreme" version?

    If you are still getting excessive (diffused) headstage,
    then that is proof your damping is innefective..

    Another problem with signature to even out, is you don't necessarily want a flat response.
    Measurement rigs are known to exagerate bass and not be as accurate in trebles...

    I myself prefer to preserve the signature HD800 upper end sound and not have a "flat" sound,
    Because in doing so (excessive treble absorbtion) ,
    Can have a side effect of muting the transients.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2018
  6. ThePianoMan

    ThePianoMan Almost "Made"

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    My initial mods were identical to yours. They measure flat after compensation. I prefer a slightly laid back presence region because I have to listen to music for my job all day, which can be fatiguing.

    That said, I did exactly your mods, but found i preferred also damping the outter plastic ABS ring. I also tried slathering synamat everywhere, which as you noted, doesn’t work. And yes Imm using dynamat extreme.

    My HD800 does not have diffuse, unfocused treble, its a very focused transient sound. I’ve altered it slightly for more bass and a sightly sweeter, slightly laid back presence range because that is my taste.
     
  7. Maxx134

    Maxx134 no one will touch his boy parts without $$$

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    This is good, because doing one side only (rear), can produce added energy to the front.
    Like a ball hitting a (padded) wall (dynamat) , yet still bouncing back in(!) at a lesser strength, and adding to the overall vibrations...

    Look at the dynamat, as "padded" walls for bouncing balls (vibrations)
    :)
    The black side will attenuate, but not same the silver side.

    You will enevitably be both slowing down and boucing back the "ball" depending how it is configured.

    That said, I would appreciate and value you posting any your Dynamat work and experience here.
    I would link it to first page.
    More the merrier as I would like to make known its importance to the mods.

    IMHO...
    Every HD800 & 800S, no matter which "mod" version,
    needs to be Dynamat moded.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2018
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  8. Boss302

    Boss302 Rando

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    Excellent write up OP. I am getting ready to install the SDR. Your S mod sure looks tempting too. thanks for the nice write up.
     
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  9. Maxx134

    Maxx134 no one will touch his boy parts without $$$

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    It easy to just try the Sennheiser material I used in place of the SDR which will basically turn your 800 close to an 800S if you desire.

    Also update I returned to the 800 again to test two more new mods in next weeks so will update then.
     
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  10. Maxx134

    Maxx134 no one will touch his boy parts without $$$

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    The Dekoni ferenstrated lambskin pads also partially address the the treble region peak that the SDR addresses.

    With them you may not need the center mods(!).

    The drawback is slightly less bass.
    I believe this is a design choice that Dekoni made on that pad.

    The other Dekoni pads were not as open sounding.

    My approach is removing anything that is less open sounding than stock.

    That is why in this thread, there is no selection or mention of ANYTHING that would reduce soundstage.

    So no use of internal rug liners, or creatology foams, or really anything that would decrease the effective internal volume.
    It also artificially creates a "cleaner" impulse response decay.

    I am switching to Dekoni pads...
    Stock pads reduce internal volume as they are already shallow, and get more shallow as they get old...

    It is my opinion that the HD800 driver design benifits from more internal volume.

    My studying of it leads me to believe that the larger volume better propagates the soundfield wave pattern, like what a horn speaker does.

    Focal headphones also internally shaped to do this as well.
    An internal basket shape to propagated the sound wave.

    Also any room speaker does similar, by projecting outward the image, and as it disperse, it fills the room getting larger..

    I feel the planars & electrostatics have the advantage of a way more flat sound wave pattern to travel to the ear, but the wave is already "large", so the ear is already immersed in a large sound wave, and the ear's localization cues detect a large image.

    So, my opinion is that the HD800 basket help the driver simulate a larger image.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2019
    Jerry likes this.
  11. Ash1412

    Ash1412 Friend

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    Can we combine the more open pad with the SDR mod to completely kill the peak? neither of them seem to completely eliminate it by themselves. Then there's the problem of bringing up the upper mids.
     
  12. Maxx134

    Maxx134 no one will touch his boy parts without $$$

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    Sounds interesting idea to try.

    Hmmm, I should measure differences of the inserts on same headphone.
    Should have done it long ago to compare differences.
     
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  13. frenchbat

    frenchbat BritishBat's arch enemy - Friend

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    6 months later, this thread is still just a lot of talk.
     
  14. Maxx134

    Maxx134 no one will touch his boy parts without $$$

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    Is that a challenge?
     
  15. Lyer25

    Lyer25 Too sensitive for SBAF

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    If a challenge is what it takes for before/after measurements to pop up (CDSs with higher resolutions please), then hey, that'd be great.

    I eventually settled on not getting an HD800 after years of wanting one, mostly because I snagged a pair of cans that trades blows with em and has better bass to boot, but that doesn't mean I'm not as interested to see new ways to improve upon the HD800, as I assume many others are. Subjective impressions matter, but as per a recent thread measurements are what help keep things from going to poop.
     
  16. Maxx134

    Maxx134 no one will touch his boy parts without $$$

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    Ok, I just check the thread to make sure it has measurements.
    It does which is why I can't understand the rediculous position that I didn't provide data or proof..
    I even see people liking frenchbat post(!).

    Although I posted this mod as a gift to the community, I have been met with silence, crickets, and rude ungratefullness.

    Still I do realize negative posters always account for a very small minority in any community.

    Regardless, I spill my jewels of discovery to the world so others can benifit.
    Talk about biting the hand that feeds you.

    I have slowly leaked out more info for modders to use their head here and on headfi.

    Yet if you think thats all that I have, you would be very mistaken.
    The truth is I am way way way past this with the HD800.
    I have solved the HD800 in every way, improving upon it in every way, including soundstage.

    My posted mod was a year old even before I posted it to the mases..

    If you take onto yourself the work of doing this mod, it is actually a stepping stone to what is achievable with this unit.

    For those of you who don't know me, I am an extremely positive friendly person, but online tend to tell it like it is, which seems to attract the trolls.
    Yet I am not known to BS.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2018
  17. SoupRKnowva

    SoupRKnowva Official SBAF South Korean Ambassador - Friend

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    When’s the newer mod gonna get posted?
     
  18. Lyer25

    Lyer25 Too sensitive for SBAF

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    Hi Max,

    Pardon, but it looks to me like you're comparing measurements of HD800s from other people's rigs to measurements of your own modded HD800s (e.g. ultrabike's impulse response and what looks like purr1n's CSDs of an unreleased Anax mod). While I do think it's possible to get close to someone else's rig (after putting in some effort), comparing measurements on the same rig would be best for an assortment of reasons.

    As for the mods themselves, I remember reading this thread way back but looked it over again just now. The mods proposed seem well-considered and reports of improved imaging etc. over stock are exciting, nearly as much so as claims of having "completely solved" the HD800. That said, your tone now comes across as a bit punitive, which isn't to your benefit. I'm also actually curious to hear what rig @coinmaster compared the Senns out of.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2018
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  19. yotacowboy

    yotacowboy McRibs Kind of Guy

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    Fair enough. The reason I liked his post was because despite there being some soundness to the engineering principles of mass-damping the frames of drivers/transducers, and changing the way the back wave of the driver interacts with the airmass outside of the headphones or reflects back into the driver/baffle, the way you're presenting any evidence that what you've done actually accomplishes what you're claiming your mods do to the impulse response and frequency response amounts to AudioAsylum-style handwaving about magic pebbles and quantum chips.

    Edit: Would like to add: a critique of method, or a critique of judgement should not be confused with a critique of character.

    Is Sennheiser hiring?
     
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  20. Maxx134

    Maxx134 no one will touch his boy parts without $$$

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    Apoligies guys, everyone has there "testosterone filled" moments lol.
    This being a community for like minded members to help each other.

    I will be around future meets for others to hear my HD800 and judge for themselves.

    I will also continue to give future updates.
     
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