Headphone Cables

I've head both the Claire HPC mk2 (OCC Copper) and the Claire Hybrid. I much prefer the Claire HPC mk2. By contrast, the hybrid cable sounds more compressed spatially, sounds limited in dynamics, is more flat sounding with less space between notes and has less natural tone, with a bit of dryness. It's not quite cold/sterile like some silver cables, but it removes some of the realism of the Forza Claire HPC mk2.

I should also say that I don't think the hybrid will give you any extra treble sparkle, as it seemed to have the same basic sound signature a the OCC copper just less of the good stuff in the middle,

So I would definitely recommend the OCC Copper.

I have also bought the Forza Noir in OCC Copper and I much prefer the Claire. The Noir just sounds more compressed and a little wonky in its tone and presentation. I'vie tried a ton of cables nd the Forza Claire OCC chopper cable is my reference,

the only one that beats it that I have heard is the Arctic Cales Talos, which uses the same 8 core square braid, but is like 4 times as thick. And about $500-$600.

 

Thanks a lot @rhythmdevils, this is exactly the kind of information I wanted.

 

I would definitely concur with the fact that a hybrid cable (if defined as a blend of equal parts SPC and copper) yields marginal if any audible gains over full SPC.
I've been noodling around with different configurations recently and while there IS a discernible sonic difference between SPC and copper, I couldn;t really telll much difference between a hybrid blend and SPC. However, to my ears there is a definite, but very subtle difference between a hybrid blend and copper and I doubt I would be able to tell them apart in a double-blind listening test.

That said, I think a lot depends on other dynamics such as headphone sensitivity and amplification which can augment certain sonic characteristics, but again I think this is pretty subjective.
I was expecting a sort of middle-ground result from the hybrid blend but all I got was a cable that looks a bit better aesthetically (subjectively ofc) and sounds identical to a full SPC cable.

I always advise people that if they want neutrality and transparency to go for copper and if they feel like there's something missing at the top end or if their hearing wasn't what it used to be then SPC 'might' help.

I'm hoping I can start measuring cables at some point.

 

OK. Finally finished the last 5 pages of this thread. An enjoyable read and interesting to learn about peples' experiences and expectations.

As someone who has just converted his hobby into a fulltime business, information like this is gold dust to someone like me as it helps to shape and influence the way I develop my business model and accommodate what consumers are looking for. I know some outfits already do this, Fiio I think are a good example of a company who actively and meaningfully engages with their market.
I've been involved in commercial product-development during my career and the 'customer feedback loop' is inherently important for gathering data that can be fed back into PD. I'm amazed that more companies don't take advantage of it to be honest.

In any case, I'm NOT here to give a sales pitch but what I am genuinely interested in is what you enthusiasts/consumers think is most important when it comes to choosing and buying cables?
Mods if you feel I'm over-reaching re. the rules then feel free to tweak my nasal hairs or remove this post etc. with no hard feelings from me.

I have ideas in place which I myself would actually want when it comes to buying an upgrade cable. It can be a serious investment or outlay for a lot of folks so I think value-for-money should be an absolute and expected standard feature right? With some explanation or rationalisation of where the costs are and what the margin is. Agree?

I also have a (limited) lifetime guarantee in place for my products which means if a cable/s fails as a result of component or material failure etc. then I will fix or replace it. Makers can tell when a cable has been abused, used as a towing rope etc. so it's easy to distinguish from normal wear and tear or component failure. I ultimately think that if you are confident in the build quality of your cables that this should also be a standard offering. Concur?

An absolute and unquestionably critical facility I now offer is a loan scheme - where prospective clients can actually try out a cable for a couple of weeks before they decide to invest. This has been the single biggest feature which has generated sales for me and I am dumbfounded that more cablemakers don't offer it! Any ideas why? I can imagine scale, risk and administration load would be a big OPEX component for some of the larger companies but it should be feasible for any size organisation in my view. The potential return on investment, if you have a good product, is assured.

I also think engaging with your clients / prospective clients is important. Boy it takes a lot of time and effort answering allsorts of questions and I try to keep up but this one is tricky. I calculated that I spend around 20% of my time messaging/emailing and sometimes calling with people. I realise the importance but I think it's beginning to take a negative toll. I would prefer an easier solution like an extensive FAQ or AI chatbot or something. I don't think there's any easy solution to that one.
The upsides are that most of the time it's actually pleasurable and interesting to communicate with people. There are the occasional cranks, as well as folks who are just plain lonely and want a chat lol, but yeah; important, but labour-intensive and fatiguing sometimes.
Any ideas how I could improve that, or make it easier for me?

Providing measurements is something I have planned for the future but this is going to take a lot of time and effort on my part. Defining correct and verifiable technique, good equipment etc. To be honest I'm not a huge fan of measurements although I realise many place importance on them, so why not provide them? Any tips here would be gratefully received.

Finally, I'd LOVE to hear any useful suggestions, especially relating to your expectations. Maybe I should offer some kind of reward for any ideas I can actually implement into the business eventually. Is that allowed? Frowned on here? Let me know...

Again, this post isn't about me shilling my wares. I haven't given any links to my selling platforms in this post and the websites that look like my forum name are NOT mine. I actually don't have a website yet amazingly, yet the order book is full, which is pretty encouraging and affirms that I'm doing something right, which is nice!
I'm simply engaging with part of my target market via the forum in order to establish and clarify expectations towards a cable supplier.

Hence, please feel free to chip in any rational, logical and useful ideas that you think are relevant and applicable and I should say that I don't just make headphone cables. I also make interconnects and power cables. But any more info than that and I think it crosses the line so I'll leave it there, but again; looking for useable ideas.

Thanks in advance!

 

Many thanks for taking the time to read and giving your considered responses. It all goes in the pot!

Regarding loaning cables out; I used to do this on a trust basis but ended up just getting scammed by people claiming items were 'lost in the post' etc. So I removed the risk to me by implementing a deposit payment for the full value of the cables and it seems to be working ok without issue so far...

A website is in the offing but far from complete yet but yes you're right - definitely a basic requirement.

Interesting to hear your opinion on measurements being a waste of time. I suspect this will fall into 2 distinct camps. Those who value them and those who just don't care.
The loan scheme can help affirm system synergy / expectations but this obviously isn't convenient for everyone.

Great suggestions/comments. Thanks again!

 

Free feedback because I appreciate that this manufacturer cares enough to "actually try" vs "just a sales pitch + pretty pictures". As always, just the opinion of 1 person.

 

Good sound

for me personally, not just Mogami or something similar. I am not interested. Might as well get Blue Jeans.

no bullshit flowery language anywhere

actual ideas

pictures of the inside of the cables

details about materials used

measurements at least of the capacitance of the cable because if they are used after a transformer balanced to SE converter capacitance matters and I use one of these as do most people on this forum or at least many as most DACS have better XLR outs than SE outs. I won’t buy any SE cable without capacitance measurements.

not too many product lines. I really like Audio Envy’s approach. One line of cables they stand behind. Measurements. No bullshit. Good prices. Good sound. Great customer service.

seeing cable companies with 10 different models reeks a bit of just creating demand by creating options. Does the $1k cable actually sound better than the $100 cable or just have something fancy involved like 2 braid types or big connectors?

 

I only have advice for you as an entrepreneur, particularly as a cable maker (I was semi-pro for a while and sold maybe 100 before it wasn't fun anymore). You are in the luxury market of handmade goods attached to another luxury market of highend headphones. Price yourself accordingly. If you try to gain rapid marketshare through underselling the current market, you can easily find yourself months behind on orders to the point you or your business breaks. It has happened countless times. Make sure you are honest with how long things take, not just making the cables, but packaging and shipping, dealing with customer service, etc. And definitely follow @rhythmdevils advice of keeping a small product menu, especially at the start. There are options at every level of the market, with very little space to truly innovate without a huge helping of bullshit. Be clear which segment of the market you are going for and be excellent at meeting its needs with the level of marking that it will accept.

I am an entrepreneur that helps other entrepreneurs with various levels of success and failure under my belt. I always applaud people who want to make a go of it themselves, and wish you the best of luck.

PS As a consumer, I can't really tell the sound differences in cables so I want something that looks cool, has nice handling, and is built well. Oh and make it as cheap as bulk Mogami cable

 

Many thanks for taking the time to reply and great to hear your opinions and suggestions.
The only idea I would disagree with you on is comparing with other brands. One, becasue I think I would be potentially exposing myself to all sorts of legal/defamation implications, and secondly becasue I would prefer to sell my own cables on their own merits etc. I'd love to get into comparisons, especially with independent testing etc. but I think it's frought with dangers that could shut me down!

A key part of the business model, without wanting to get into sales pitch mode, is to offer real, genuine value for money alongside the same performance, material and build quality of the major manufacturers but without some of their ridiculously high margins. So I hope that shows through when compared with bigger brands.
I'm seeing my own brand-loyalty develop now with clients coming back to make repeat orders for other types of cables becasue they had a good experience with the initial purchase etc. That makes me feel great inside and is a clarification that I'm making good products. I just need to keep it up! lol

When I see the prices of some of these so-called 'high-end' cables and know exactly what goes into them it angers me to see so much obvious profiteering. With my cables, 10% is material/component costs, 80% is for my time and there is a small margin to give some 'profit' to the venture. But my time is the biggest cost component and I don't charge lawyer-level hourly rates!

Ok, I think I'm treading on thin ice now before I get accused of 'selling'.
Thanks again for your ideas! Everything gets noted and considered!

 

Many thanks for taking time to make some really worthwhile observations and suggestions! Particularly regarding cable capacitance. It's crossed my mind to get some sort of standardised cable spec applied for the entire range.

 

Many thanks for your time in responding with sound advice and great ideas!

 

Guys, thanks for all those amazing, considered and well thought-out reponses!
I'm really pleasantly surprised but equally grateful!
Time is the most precious thing you can give anyone in my opinion and you all put a lot of time and effort and thought in!

There are some great suggestions, a lot of clarifications for ideas that I already had and some things I SHOULD have thought of already but everything goes in the pot and I think one of the standout ideas is to simplify or reduce the number of models in the range. This is something I can do with immediate effect as it's simply a case of removing them from sale. One model in particular hasn't sold in the last month so that will be the easiest to withdraw!

I should have also mentioned a the top what the range consisted of, but again, trying to stay on the right side of forum rules, all I can say is that I make more than just headphone cables (6 models). I actually make more analogue interconnects than anything else but power cables are actually starting to sell in multiples and higher numbers than before. I also have 2 digital interconnects and a single speaker cable model.
There are about 25 models in total and maybe I should get this down to at least 20 to start with. Problem is, apart from the one I mentioned that doesn't sell that much, all the rest actually do sell regularly. So is it really the best option to withdraw them? The build queue is pretty long and getting longer so I don't actually know if withdrawing models is going to add benefit.
Ok I can't say anymore than that.

In any case, I didn't expect such a willing and enthusiastic response but considering this I'm now tempted to engage with the mods here in order to explore if I could be allowed to arrange sharing some of my cables for personal appraisal.
The idea of having cables 'designed by an audio enthusiasts forum' actually gives me goosebumps and it seems logical and a pretty exciting concept!
I just need to canvas permission and get approval obviously.

How does that sound as an idea though? I wouldn't mind at all if people want to participate and critique them - as far as I'm concerned it's only going to be a benefit for me, in terms of implementing any suggested improvements etc.

Thoughts?
Who should I approach here?
Anyone willing to endorse me?
Stupid idea Chris, get back in your box ? lol

 

I would also like to add that a cable sounding “better” than the other for one person, may sound worse for the other person.

For instance, I prefer a cable that rounds off the treble and has good bass presence. I don’t mind loss of high frequency detail as a result.

Another may find a cable with stronger attack and more hf detail/presence better sounding than the cable I like, so he would recommend me the “better” sounding cable for advice instead of the one I like.

Same goes for all components in this hobby, I lost a lot of unnecessary money in the first few years of my 11 year long audio journey due to this fact.

So the most important thing for cables and all gear in general, is asking for differences in the areas you care for.

 

I've been listening to my dbel84-modded LCD-3's on my ECBA again with their stock 4-pin XLR as well as some $80 amazon silver-plated cable, and I notice sibilance I don't remember there being back when I had a moon audio silver dragon balanced cable. Though the problem with these impressions is that I sold that cable years back when I was only using the Audeze with my burson conductor or other se amps, and then just didn't use them at all for some time, so who knows with everything that's changed since then.

I do notice, though, that sibilance being there or not is a reason a reviewer I binge listen to always says they prefer one cable over another when there is a difference, so maybe he's onto something and I will choose to believe that the moon audio cable was better.

I have a zmf ofc cable that fits Audeze that I'll try when I'm less lazy to see if that's better-enough than the stock or cheapo cables.

If my job ever brings back the OT, I'll probably make a nice cable, like maybe the verite silver, my next upgrade.

The Amazon cable made no claims about its copper being special, so I'm assuming it's meh and the silver plating matters much less than that.

 

Made a new cable for my Clear's using Neotech cable, Neutrik/Rean and cotton sleeve. Put heat shrink with glue around the jacks for a snugger fit in the headphones and reinforcement to the cable.

 

Hello to All SBAFers,

To those of you that own ZMF Verite Opens (VO), what HP cable are you using? I have read that the stock cable(s) are not the greatest. In a post above, @rhythmdevils suggested an Arctic Cables Talos. I have a FAW SE cable I use alot on GenGs that works well. Want to stick with all-Cu. My VOs have about 90-100 hrs of break-in on them. Forgot to mention they will be driven by a 3F and a HIGHLY modified Sony CD/SACD player.

TIA.

Bill

 

The stock ZMF cable is actually OK, but you might notice a difference with a ZMF upgraded thicker gauge. The FAW is good and Matt makes a fine product. The Noir is beautiful and enjoyable from a mechanical perspective. (Sorry, no cable comparos—sound is too subjective for me)

 

Where do folks stand here regarding Moon Audio cables? I don't have much experience with them (only briefly heard their Black and Silver dragons when auditioning some Hifiman Arya Organics). While the Silver Dragons did seem to make a pretty significant impact (improvement) on the sound, I don't know if dropping $300-500+ is worth that. Are there other options that offer similar improvements without such a steep price tag?

 

I've built Black and Blue Dragons, and borrowed some Silver. I think they're all quite overpriced, but the Silver hardwired on some borrowed TH-X00 EB's was what got me to start down a DIY silver HP cable mini rabbit hole. I only have one Blue Dragon left that I can compare with and it's a bit dry and etched compared to some DIY Neotech on HD6XX. I prefer the Neotech (and also Forza pure copper, if you're not DIY-inclined). Both of these represent better value, IMHO. I think there was a time when the only options for fancy headphone cable was Moon and 4x24 Cardas; both represent different ends of the sonic spectrum (dry/cool vs. wet/warm). The Silver allowed the TH-X00 EBs midrange to come forward and treble became a bit smoother, without affecting the thunderpantsy (in a good way) bass.