I made a hyper-engaging headphone with HD800S drivers

Discussion in 'Modifications and Tweaks' started by Bill-P, Mar 1, 2020.

  1. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    @rhythmdevils I think he's referring more to the front baffle as a necessary area to explore (higher density = more bass) rather than damping over the driver itself, though I believe both were mentioned.

    I do generally agree, though. Get things as best as possible without resorting to putting stuff directly over the driver, though sometimes best results are found with the right mixture of the two.
     
  2. Bill-P

    Bill-P Level 42 Mad Wizard

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    Yeah, I get what he's saying, though. IME, planars are also very responsive to back-side damping. If I was using a planar driver, I'd definitely try that first. Maybe I'll do that with the next design. \/

    For this V2.5 headphone with HD800 drivers, it's really just the baffle, as @Hands said. The speaker grill cloth is one thin layer on top. It's not too different than the stock HD800 grill cloth. Maybe one day I'll figure out how to make a baffle that doesn't depend on the grill cloth, but for now, I think I'll keep it on to prevent the upper midrange from going crazy.

    And actually, I'm glad that this material helps. That makes the next design with different ear pads more flexible. IME, it's actually not trivial to try and bring out sub bass with HD800 drivers. I have always maintained that Sennheiser, despite their continuous "failure" at tuning a headphone that fits our taste, actually knows very well what they are doing. I'm just very curious why they have not tried to make a headphone like this and price it at $2000.
     
  3. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    Well, it's not hard to bring out the sub-bass on these drivers in general, but it is hard to bring it out without making everything else sound bad. :)

    I actually believe that in almost all situations, some amount of damping over the front of the driver is required for optimal sound. When modding headphones, I usually shoot for a response that's just a tiny, tiny bit brighter/rougher and leaner than what I'd consider perfect, then add a fairly minimal amount or type of damping over the front of the driver. This seems to give the best blend of tone, dynamics, control, and overall refinement.
     
  4. rhythmdevils

    rhythmdevils MOT: rhythmdevils audio

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    Hmmm I don’t have that experience at all. Many times I’ve wound up with some front driver damping and later got the rear damping better, and removed the front damping and there’s always a noticeable increase in openness and clarity. But do what works for you I know you have good ears.

    And my bad @Bill-P i didn’t realize you were talking about open baffle damping. Definitely good and maybe necessary. When you add damping there you’re among other things, changing how the drivers move because you’re changing how freely they can pump air pressure waves into the pad/ear enclosure. So your actually damping the driver and a lot probably need it. Can’t remember when I saw an electrodynamic headphone without baffle vent damping.

    AKG actually installed six passive radiators in the baffle of their sextet. Back in the day when they experimented before they became HAKG.
     
  5. E_Schaaf

    E_Schaaf MOT: E.T.A Headphones

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    I agree with @Hands on this one. Damping also doesn't have to cover the whole driver's surface area. Partial covering can be the best of both worlds in terms smoothing top-end or controlling upper mids without nerfing slam. Something I picked up during my HE6 days. On many headphones I prefer a more obstructive partial filter over even 1-ply of TP that totally covers the driver's front face. And there could be multi-material or assymetrical arrangements too. There's a fairly complex relationship between front damping and pads as well that could use more exploration - position on the head, density of foam, pad materials, what part of the pad cavity is being damped in what way, etc. It's like a microcosm of room treatment.

    edit - not to say that rear damping isn't just as important! It totally is. I'll be impressed if I hear a listenable Senn 600 series with only rear damping and no front damping. I guess the quarter mod is close. But a perfectly tuned undamped front baffle... that'd be sweet.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2020
  6. rhythmdevils

    rhythmdevils MOT: rhythmdevils audio

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    I see it as a fault of the driver that the hdxx0 series needs front driver damping. A peak that creates sharpness. But they are much more clear and open sounding without it. Yeah it would be awesome to see but may need modifications to the driver.
     
  7. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    So, I mentioned the SHP9500...

    While I wait for some cups from @Bill-P, I wanted to start prototyping some ideas with the HD800 drivers.

    If you remove the SHP9500 driver, including the part of the frame it's glued into, the leftover hole it a literal perfect fit for the HD800 driver. Pops right in and holds itself in place. Weird...Super weird...But a happy coincidental finding nonetheless.

    Well, one side of the headphone requires some cutting to fit the driver terminals. The left side's cutout for the stock cable jack is a near-perfect fit for the HD800 driver terminals. Again, weird coincidence...

    And there's not much room left to install cable jacks.

    But that's OK, because I'm simply using this as a prototyping test bed. The baffle around the driver has existing ports around the edge one can use to test different materials. You can try installing pads "in" the enclosure, i.e. adhered to the baffle around the driver, or around the upper rim of the headphone, using either the stock pads or an adapter for other pads.

    I'm not yet going to get into what experiments I've tried or how it sounds, but results are promising and show how fucked up the HD800 enclosure is. This is a serviceable driver let down by a horrible enclosure. And, yeah, f**k you if your retort is, "BuT mY sOuNdStAgE." And, no, your rug liner mods don't get you anywhere near close to ideal tonal balance.

    Here's a pic of the stock driver and the part of the housing it's glued into.

    PXL_20200911_154056481~2.jpg


    And here's a rear-side pic after installing the HD800 drivers.

    PXL_20200911_151910294~2.jpg


    Lots of tape and the like to hold things together. Again, just prototyping here. It's a fragile mess, but works enough to try different baffle and pad combinations.

    Also interesting is that the center port on the driver effectively acts as a front baffle, so the driver is actually usable even if used with an entirely closed front baffle. You can further tune sound at that port.

    More to come eventually.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2020
  8. Baten

    Baten Friend

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    Insane mod, can't wait for sound impressions! :)
     
  9. gixxerwimp

    gixxerwimp Professional tricycle rider

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    Totally agree. Even after all my mods, they're still unlistenable without significant EQ. The soundstage isn't the best thing about them for me. Interested to see what you can get from these drivers.
     
  10. Bill-P

    Bill-P Level 42 Mad Wizard

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    Sorry for the lack of updates.

    A V3 was finally completed and I left it with @CEE TEE. After that, hopefully this one can make it down to SoCal so @brencho and @purr1n will be able to tell me how much it sucks!

    Also this may be the last "revision" I'll do to this baffle type. I feel like I'm just trying to "mod" a dead design at this point. The next one will be a completely different baffle that supports other pads, and I may make it circular versus oval, etc...

    As for what's different between V1 and V3, I'll let others be the judge of that. I do have measurements, but I won't show them until everyone has had some time with the thing.
     
  11. Walderstorn

    Walderstorn Friend

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    @Bill-P what would be the direct consequences of Oval vs Circular in your opinion?
     
  12. Bill-P

    Bill-P Level 42 Mad Wizard

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    Oops, sorry for the late response. So... on this, I'm not sure until I put the headphone together and measure...

    But no matter the change to the shape of the cup, I think ear pads will still be able to offset that to a pretty significant degree. So in the end, the shape probably doesn't matter that much. I think the factors that will matter most are:

    1. Ear pads material + construction
    2. Distance to ears (my V1 is very close to the ears, V2 is pretty far, and V3 just splits the difference)
    3. Material/permeability of the baffle

    And then the rest is just... whichever style you want the thing to look like. Styling is why I love having a 3D printer. I can just create whatever I like to have.

    Also, to that point, I guess I could make the first prototype headphone circular rather than oval. But personally, I feel like oval is more comfortable to wear than circular, hence... the shape. But it could have gone either way.

    I've been drawing up a version with circular shape for a closed-back headphone. Not sure where that one will lead yet, but I've gotten some very good feedbacks on the current project, and I hope I'll have time to make an open-source version of it soon.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2020
  13. Walderstorn

    Walderstorn Friend

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    Thanks for replying.

    I understand what you mean. Unfortunately i have no possible access to a 3D printer. I had a thought that one could kinda mimic the frame of the HD800 but with the driver 2-3 mm closer to to the ear and a cage that could magnetically attach to the main frame so one could magnetically attach different damp materials. Kinda like what some brands do with the pads.

    Oh well it's just a crazy thought.

    Not gonna lie, this is my favorite project, mostly because it toys a lot with my imagination.
     
  14. CEE TEE

    CEE TEE MOT: NITSCH

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    BillP Proto V3 - Tasteful Tunes Series

    Impressions on: Mac>Tidal HiFi>Pi2AES>Coax>PS Audio PWD MkI/II FW 2.0.2/NativeX/Filter 1>Moth 2a3 Hytron/Sylvania6SL7

    Bottom Line: Proto3 adds teh bass dimension.

    Pretty masterful tuning. An all-day listen. Punch and warmth, clarity, nothing sounding out of shape up top (detected anly a short dip at very top with sine sweeps). The balance of speed, weight, dynamics, and tuning is really great. These strike a nice balance between rev-happy and smooth.

    Sound seems linear + a low-end slight lushness + sub-50Hz kick
    (There is a “bit” of extra low bass but it is tasteful and many would probably say this is their version of neutral or fun.)
    Upper end is not piercing but has a snappy attack.
    SAMPLE TRACK: Beatles - Love album - A Day In The Life
    SAMPLE TRACK: Shunske Sato - Violin Concerto No.1 iin A Minor, BMV 1041:I. Allegro moderato


    Some plankton is there (reverb, upper mids transient decay), along with the dynamics and bass weight.
    BillP managed to increase the low bass without increasing mid and high bass too much.
    This results in satisfying electronic bass hits without obscuring the vocal range.
    Bass has tone and edge definition, overall adds some bass floor/wamth and more physicality (fun without fatigue).
    SAMPLE TRACK: deadmau5 fn pig (ov) [Spencer Brown Remix]
    SAMPLE TRACK: Daft Punk - Doin’ it Right (the lower bass tone is louder than the mid/upper bass tone and lowest tone hits)


    While the warmth fills in the blackground, the drivers seem less damped and are snappy so the perceived dynamic range does not suffer.
    Vocals have a <very> low level of grain which gives them a glassy, pure sound. (Granted- on the Moth.)
    (Shelby Lynne - Just A Little Lovin’, Sarah McLachlan - Angel, special version of Suzanne Vega’s Solitude Standing with only the vocal track)

    Imaging is more relaxed and blended on Proto3 vs. my modded 800. Some resolution is missing or additional distortion is obscuring more specific instrument placement within the stage on Proto3.
    The tradeoff is more relaxed listening vs. tighter/more precise sound.
    More rigid/heavier parts might affect this aspect?

    Not surprisingly (BillP and I both like a maxxed-out Crack amp), while these do some things very, very well…they prize tone, aim at enjoyment, and aren’t trying to give e-stats a run for the money. Would be interesting to experiment with reductions in part vibrations and also pairing with other amps to hear the range of moving the sweet spot around. (DSHA-3F to tighten things up?)

    I’m listening back and forth a bit- trying to see if it is a resolution thing or a speed thing. A damping/control thing that loses any resolution or just blooms it... Is it all there but just...bigger/rounder? It’s super-enjoyable, regardless.

    Lush life. Good stuff. 800 reimagined. I dub these the “Tuner Series BillP First Pressing Limited Edition 800P”


    We should pitch in for a Bay Area Makerbot Method X Carbon to strengthen the geometric mesh cups:
    https://www.makerbot.com/3d-printer...C3YIrYENczF8gELlg59C-L3ktWhGMCkhoCsWAQAvD_BwE

    The HD580 Jubilee 50th Anniversary Edition had a Carbon Fiber paint job because the yoke and driver frame (not the headband) were carbon-fiber reinforced nylon:
    Carbon Nylon Frame.png

    This might help keep the geo-mesh cups from breaking and maybe provide some other additional benefits?
     
  15. Bill-P

    Bill-P Level 42 Mad Wizard

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    Awesome! Thanks, @CEE TEE!

    Honestly, without you and @purr1n giving me feedbacks, I wouldn't have been able to get this far all by myself. Having impressions from ears that I trust really bring a lot of things to light and get me excited about what to do to improve on the last designs.

    For those who are curious, here are some measurements on EARS (stock HEQ compensation):

    V3 Left + Right:
    [​IMG]

    V3 vs V1 (this is the one CEE TEE heard a while back and also the exact same one that Marv measured)
    [​IMG]

    V3 vs HD650
    [​IMG]

    Hopefully that gives some perspective on how they sound. I'd intended to leave the measurements until the end, but since things have been moving along pretty slowly, and with Marv moving away soon, I figure I might as well show these now.

    If anyone would like to get the stl files for 3D printing, please feel free to PM me. I can give you guys the files for V3.

    I can't make the files available publicly, though. That's not because I want to hold on to any "secret", but because I don't think it's ready for the general public yet unless you really know what you're doing, or you're just crazy like me and you love to tinker and torture yourself. Personally, I'm not really in this to make millions of bucks. I just really wanted to make a headphone like this for myself. V3 is basically "it" for me, but I'll still continue to work on an open-source design that will be more durable, easier to assemble, and with an FR that matches or exceeds this first round of prototypes. That'll be the one I'll publish.
     
  16. tommytakis

    tommytakis MOT: E.T.A Headphones

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    I'm super new to 3D printing and CAD designing, but I've been working on a custom shell prototype for a HD800 driver as well. It's def no where near as refined looking as modding wizard @Bill-P but I'm just surprised I managed to get this far and actually sounds p good! This is just an early proto so I'm using a spare borealis headband I found lying around (Don't worry Ruck and Eudis, I'm not copying your design or anything haha) as a placeholder while I keep tweaking the design. I'm also thinking of adding another piece for the rear to help with the bass roll off, but that's all i'll say for now :)

    it's weird to write impressions about my own design so I'll let people like @ChaChaRealSmooth and other LA folks to do so once everything is finalized.
    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
  17. E_Schaaf

    E_Schaaf MOT: E.T.A Headphones

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    I'm partial to circular headphone designs because there's more flexibility in terms of pads, which is basically the #3 most important factor to the sound after the driver and baffle design - on that note @tommytakis when you get far enough along, if you ever want me to test out 30+ pad types with your can and see what does best I'll be happy to roll and share measurements / feedback with you. Maybe in-person with enough time :)
     
  18. tommytakis

    tommytakis MOT: E.T.A Headphones

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    u da best Ev! Yeah I'll def take u up on that offer. I'm currently working on the Be coated driver design right now so I'll possibly bring 2 prototypes to u
     
  19. Bill-P

    Bill-P Level 42 Mad Wizard

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    Awesome work, @tommytakis! This is exactly what I wanted to see!

    I think it's high time we have a large group of people who start printing out and prototyping their own headphones. Maybe some of us will go on to create our own companies and make like... "Master of Speakas" brand, but ultimately, I feel like the hobby has been stagnant enough that it's time we start making things for ourselves.

    This has happened for years on the speakers side, but we haven't had this happen to the headphone side yet.

    I hope people will start seeing what we can do with these concepts and will seriously consider doing it themselves. I think 3D printing tech has matured enough for this to be easily accessible to most folks.
     
  20. Ronion

    Ronion New

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    This is absolutely awesome. This has to be the most technically inclined headphone forum.
     

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