Indian Classical Music Thread

Discussion in 'Music and Recordings' started by shaizada, Feb 7, 2016.

  1. penguins

    penguins Friend, formerly known as fp627

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    So - I've been exploring new to me musical instruments recently and have discovered that I like the dilruba and sarangi. Anyone have any good places to get started for music based around these 2 instruments - preferably without too much, if any, "other stuff".
     
  2. bobboxbody

    bobboxbody Friend

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    @penguins here's Ustad Sultan Khan playing sarangi, with minimal tanpura and tabla accompaniment. He and Ram Narayan are the big names in sarangi to my limited western knowledge.



    Unrelated, I just stumbled on this video of two young Americans playing Hindustani classical at the Kennedy Center in DC right before covid lockdowns began. The recording production is pretty good too!

     
  3. Kunlun

    Kunlun cat-alyzes cat-aclysmic cat-erwauling - Friend

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    I saw my first live Indian classical concert in some time! The son of the late Buddhadev Das Gupta, Anirban, played sarode with the great tabla player Samir Chatterjee. A beautiful concert in an intimate setting!

    [​IMG]
     
  4. ShriKrishix

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    Namaskar to All,

    Discovered this wonderful thread. Here is a piece by one and only Flute Mali.

    Additional Trivia: The 'approximate' western equivalent of this Raga 'Mohanam' is 'Major pentatonic', the sound of which is ubiquitous (Western classical, country, R&B, 60s/70s, gypsy, and Chinese/Japanese all have traces of Mohanam).

     
  5. ShriKrishix

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    Another one for folks who like to watch Carnatic live performances. The performance starts at 2:30 after Prince Rama Varma - the singer - gives a brief description of the song and ragam.
    The 'swarakalpana'** that starts taking shape at ~ 12:03 is quite beautiful. Another highlight of this performance, when he starts traversing the lower octaves beginning ~17:30 and reaches the base lower octave note at 17:56 matching the drone behind, quite reminiscent of 2 old giant Carnatic legends, and then continues riffing.



    Additional Trivia:
    1. Sound of this scale (not raga) is typically heard in Flamenco. 'Approximate' scalar equivalent in western terminology is Spanish Gypsy or Phrygian Dominant.

    2. **Swarakalpana: For anyone not aware of the meaning, it is similar to a string instrument solo rendered vocally while enunciating the notes, with all needed oscillations and vibrations. Kinda like a vocal guitar solo, for lack of better analogies...

    3. Percussion instruments used: Mridangam, Ghatam (the one that look like a clay pot) and Morsing (1st, 2nd and 4th from left)
     
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  6. ShriKrishix

    ShriKrishix Acquaintance

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    @Thad E Ginathom :
    Namaskar sir - Does your chosen moniker, by any chance, refer to the famous Carnatic laya pattern 'Ta Dhi Ghi Na Tom'?
     
  7. ShriKrishix

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    This is for the children around you when its story-telling time, or the 'child' within you.
    I was just using this playlist to introduce my young nephew and niece to Carnatic - short stories embellished and interspersed with Carnatic music. They heard 2, and I ended up listening to all 7 of them....Haha.
    Jayanti ma'am is such a wonderful story-teller as well.

     
  8. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    Make it seven counts, and you're spot on: Tha , Dhi , GhiNaThom.

    :sail:

    I spent a a few years being a first-year mridangam student, in my forties. I played morsing a bit. I was never good with numbers or memorising, and never quite broke through the samam-edepu, adi-talam barrier. Now I just sit in the audience and enjoy. Or... I did until I took up photography; I guess I'm a carnatic photographer now!

    Hats off to your evident knowledge!
     
  9. ShriKrishix

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    Right... :) I wasn't sure which derivative of 'Ta Dhi Ghi Na Tom' it is...! Tough without hearing it first.
    As an aside, as soon as I read your name, my mind automatically prefixed 'Ta ki ta' to it (3 + 5), hence the curious question.

    That's great, sir. Many interested folks don't even try. At least, it must have been fun. Who is your favorite percussion artist or laya vidwan, btw?

    Yeah, (non-samam) off-beat laya patterns can be a little bit tricky. Vocalizing first while keeping talam helps, although, I am sure you already knew that.

    Haha..That's great, sir. Do you have a link for your photographs?


    Ohh no Sir, that was a basic pattern. I am still learning and probably always will. There are many vidwans and rasikas, much more knowledgeable than me.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2021
  10. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    I am sure, from what you have posted, that you know quite a lot about songs and raga. I know very little!

    BTW, it is indeed quite likely that you are younger than me, but please, don't call me sir! It makes me feel even older! Mind you, it's better than uncle! Unless you are in your teens, in which case I can live with uncle!

    Made me smile that you called Jayanthi Kumaresh ma'am ;)... She is so much younger than me! Who's my veena maami? R S Jayalakshmi. Mind you, everyone calls her RSJ-maami. Apart from using it as a form of address for miscellaneous elder ladies, my other Maami is Suguna Varadachari.

    Any Amma? Actually, yes! I resisted for years, on the grounds that she is barely old enough to actually be my mother, but finally gave in to the greater meaning, and joined those close to her in calling Smt R Vedavalli Amma.

    All this Tam/TamBram/carnatic honorifics stuff will be mystifying to those who don't know anything about it. Those that do* might smile. The examples I have mentioned will tell you a lot about my taste in music!

    Pics... I might have posted one or two. I'm lazy about posting on Instagram, but sometimes the artists do, and you might find some tagged thad-e-ginathom.

    *Koth thambi... @Koth Ganesh etc
     
  11. ShriKrishix

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    I was smiling as I read your entire post too.

    Indeed sir! Your observation skills are quite acute.

    Haha, sir...Isn't age just a number? Okay, I will try my best not to torment you with 'sir' anymore (except for some accidental habitual slippage). Will henceforth address you as 'Thad ji'.

    Jayalakshmi Amma and Vedavalli Amma (I had to google S. Varadachari Amma) - You are already in deep end of Carnatic ocean, Thad ji - their guru lineage traces back to Veena Dhanammal, if I recall correctly.
    Such immaculate artists and such vast repositories of knowledge they are - true vidushis. Fortunate are those who directly learn from them. I love Vedavalli Amma's handling of Shri Muthuswami Dikshitar kritis, in particular.
     
  12. ShriKrishix

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    Extending the same vein so as to speak, and in direct contrast to this day and age, where words like “genius” or “child prodigy” are thrown around callously, here is a captivating performance by a true prodigy - a very young Mandolin U Shrinivas ji. Wish we had such recordings of other Carnatic stalwarts of their early public performances. I find young Shrinivas ji performances to be more electric and vigorous, as compared to his later recordings.

    The phrase at ~1:03 with the mridangam following the phrase, and Shrinivas ji’s happy acknowledgement to that, is quite endearing. The looks he gives before starting the 2nd part at ~1:35 perfectly echoes the sentiment of the lyrics to follow, for those who know the kriti/piece. But, what is most captivating is the whole atmosphere - his sheer joy, ease and infectious smiles esp. after completing fast phrases and occasionally looking at his Guruji afterwards with a smile, accomplished musicians thoroughly enjoying a little boy’s performance, and his complete absorption, particularly while executing long or fast phrases, resulting in rare Shrinivas ji’s “mandolin faces”.



    Additional Trivia:
    1. This kriti is in raga ‘Bindumalini’ and ‘Adi’ Talam (~8 beat cycle). ‘Bindumalini’ raga is a derivative (child) raga of ‘Chakravakam’. ‘Approximate’ western scalar equivalent of the parent raga ‘Chakravakam’ is 'Mixolydian b2', very very sporadically heard in blues/jazz turn-arounds.

    2. There is another 1 min memorable clip of Shrinivas ji at a similar age, playing at Berlin Jazz festival ’83 on Youtube. Have never been able to find the full concert, though.

    3. Many of you might have seen it before but sharing anyways, as this particular performance is quite dear to me for a specific reason and I revisit it from time to time.
     
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    Last edited: Dec 16, 2021
  13. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    Suguna Varadachary: Musiri school.

    R. Vedavalli, Mudicondan Venkatarama Iyer. I am delighted to say that she has honoured me by accepting my invitations to sing a concert on my birthday, three times.

    Please catch up with RSJ-mami's grand-daughter, Charulatha. She might even be my current favourite on the veena!

    DSC01474.JPG
     
  14. ShriKrishix

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    Wow, 3 times...you are indeed lucky, Thad ji. What a wonderful birthday present.

    Woah, that's some endorsement, Thad ji. A quick search shows her full concerts on YouTube. Definitely have some catching up to do. This will take some time.
     
  15. ShriKrishix

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    Right Thad ji. But didn't they also learn Padams (and probably Javalis) from the legendary Brindamma-Muktamma duo? In that sense, their guru lineage does extend to Veena Dhanammal.

    She has got talent and is a good Veena player, for her age, but still has quite a bit of work/practice to do. At present, she wouldn’t be in my list of favorite Veena players - present or all-time. I will definitely listen to her again, maybe after ~3-5 years or so. I hope she listens to better vocalists and instrumentalists (esp. greats of yesteryears) or even her own grandmother more closely, in the meantime and turn into a “Veena player to be reckoned with, in future”. May Maa Saraswati, guide her and bless her in her journey.

    Well, I initially went in with high hopes of finding the next genius or prodigy in Carnatic and was disappointed. Perhaps, my hopes were a wee bit too high, considering the wonderful opportunity, she has had under learning from her grandmother, who is quite an illustrious Guru and plays the same instrument.
    Perhaps, I should also explain where I am coming from, so as to avoid any misunderstandings that may inadvertently occur, when anyone is reading through my observations later. I am essentially elaborating on the point I made in my last post, namely the need to uphold high standards of excellence, so as to keep intact the sanctity of words like “genius” or “prodigy”.

    NOTE: (Reading Thadji’s reply again, I understand he might not have meant it that way, in that case, this predilection was entirely my folly).

    Here is what I feel about music geniuses/prodigies:

    Overall, it feels like they are master storytellers. Doesn’t matter if it is short & simple story or a magnum opus - the story is told just as engagingly and craftily. It captures one’s minds and hearts - layman, ardent listeners (rasikas) and practitioners alike.
    As far as their phraseology is concerned, the quality and flow of their phrases or melody, makes it seem like they have already have had a lifetime of practice behind them. They are also able to hear melodies played by accompanying artists and easily reproduce it, and often times, make it better, all in a childish, innocent way in a way like “Hey, that’s good. But doesn’t this sound better?” (Kind of like that famous Mozart vs Salieri scene in the movie ‘Amadeus’).
    Moreover, they come up with something new and unexpected, quite often and often spontaneously, yet it fits, so perfectly well, with each piece and within the story as a whole that the experience and sound stays with you for days. Even when playing a simple phrase or melody, they show such marvellous facets or variations of it, which even though unheard till that time, sound so beautiful, natural and paradoxically like a long lost familiar melody - makes one wonder why anyone else didn’t come up with it.
    In summary, they connect with you before you know it (maybe ~30 seconds or less, personally speaking), expose the raga (or a song) in all its majesty and forms, with a performance so enrapturing yet executed so effortlessly, that others - be it accompanying artists or audience - can’t help but find themselves, joining in the feast. And last but not the least, words cannot capture the tone and its energy, it can only be experienced.

    Hope the above position (within spoiler), explains my observations below, in a better context. So, continuing where I left off, I then went in with no expectations and listened to 3-4 of her concerts (+ 2 additional kritis /pieces from an additional solo concert featuring a modern looking Veena. The tone of that ‘modern Veena’ was strange though, and not in a good way. I suspect this due to the absence of Helmholtz resonant frequencies due to no ‘kudum’ of a traditional Veena in that design. Anyways I digress….).
    2 of those concerts were with her grandmother, RSJ Amma. All concerts were recent, the oldest being Jul’21.

    1. Overall, her handling of ‘Prati-Madhyama (M2)’ ragas is better than ‘Suddha-Madhyama (M1)’ ragas.
    2. Overall, she plays better with her grandmother around. Her solo performances were good for her age, but not spectacular. Also, her solo renditions of Varnams (basic but very important beginner material) need quite a bit of work - in particular, the majestic ‘Viriboni’ varnam in Bhairavi was not a good rendition at all, to put it mildly.
    3. She has got a good repertoire of phrases and imagination (Alapana, Neraval, Swarakalpana) but the phrases many-a-times didn’t flow into each other, weren’t developed fully and were predictable. There were many fleeting moments when I heard an enticing phrase and wished she developed it fully but it was passed over with another phrase that doesn’t quite naturally flow from the previous one. Also, quite often, quality is sacrificed for speed - speed should be a byproduct of accuracy and not the other way around.
    4. Also, the hammer-ons and pull-offs (particular to that style of Veena playing), and 'even and appropriate’ plucking needs quite a bit of work, too. It needs a certain finesse so as not to break phrases inappropriately or disturb continuity of sound in an audibly discernible way. You can listen to RSJ Amma’s playing in their dual concert and see for yourself what I mean.
    5. Lastly, speaking of tone, I don’t know why her tone sounded a bit hollow or thin, even when playing on Saraswati Veena, when it should not. Again, listen to RSJ Amma’s tone for reference in their dual concerts.

    While writing this, I asked myself: “Whether it would be too much or undue criticism for a 15-year old upcoming Veena player?” The answer was "no" because of 2 reasons:
    1. We have already heard or been spoilt, with too many greats who played better at that age or younger in last ~100-120 years. Perhaps, the last genius in Carnatic was late Shrinivas ji. You don't need to believe me, please just listen or better watch concerts of young Shrinivas ji (at an even younger or similar age). It's quite unfortunate we don’t have recordings of other doyens and geniuses of Carnatic, but if written word/oral recollections of many in then audience are anything to go by, the performance was nothing short of mesmerizing and changed the course of history.
    2. Honest impressions, in accordance with strict standards of excellence, shown and set by past great practitioners, are better for improvement, when taken the right way.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2021
  16. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    Like I say, You know more than me: much more!

    I, and several of my better-informed rasika friends find her very pleasing. I am very glad, though, that nobody is calling her a genius or prodigy. That is a psychologically dangerous road, and we don't have to look far to see some of its victims. She is developing and growing at her own pace.

    BTW, I don't really have a laya favourite. There are so many, and very many of them produce magic in different ways. I can mention one mridangist who always takes my breath away, but we only see him here during non-covid Decembers: Trichy Sankaran.

    Your "spoilers" are very interesting. Thanks for the thoughts.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2021
  17. ShriKrishix

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    Woah, Thad ji - I assure you, I have much to learn. Being in concert circles, you are most probably in the company of much more knowledgeable people than me, already.
    As a side-note, playing an instrument teaches one a thing or two more, in certain areas. Just like, being a Mridangam student yourself, I am sure you are more knowledgeable on Laya aspects than me.

    Hmm...Interesting point. Isn't it statistically more prevalent in West than here?

    Yup, as I mentioned above, may she grow into a 'formidable Veena player' one day, and surpass RSJ Amma. What better gift for a grandmother and a teacher? Also, another positive thing is seeing her may inspire a lot of kids to pick up instruments themselves.

    So, very true.

    Wow, Trichy Sankaran....what a legend! There is also a 3 hr US concert of Sankaran ji with Flute Mali ji, and Rukmini Amma, available on YouTube), worth listening to.
    So many brilliant performances of Sankaran ji - hard to choose 1 to share. Nevertheless, here is one rare video of his Thani Avartanam (percussion duet) with another Laya Mahavidwan G.Harishankar ji, on Kanjira, in Mishra jaati Triputa Tala, 2 kalai (- roughly translates to, a 11 beat Tala cycle, with 1 Tala beat consisting of 2 metronome beats, of a chosen speed, if that makes sense).
    Other heavyweights can be seen in the video too. Somehow, I suspect you attended this concert too :)



    PS: Saw your post yesterday, but couldn't respond due to computer problems, apologies. Troubleshooting took some time.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2021
  18. ShriKrishix

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    @Thad E Ginathom : Also, since you love Trichy Sankaran ji's playing, you might have already seen this wonderful documentary, about his legendary Guru PSP ji (who played Mridangam, Kanjira, and was a vocalist as well).
    In case you haven't already seen this, I think you will love it. Features many of your favorites, paying tribute to PSP ji - Vedavalli Amma, Trichy Sankaran himself. Also, has many nice anecdotes, and song excerpts.

    1. 1st part - Main video (with English subtitles)



    2. 2nd part - Tani Avartanam of PSP ji



    3. 3rd part - PSP ji playing with Dave Brubeck's famous jazz quartet




    PS: As an aside, Kalidas ji's channel is a treasure trove.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2021
  19. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    Yes, I know some very learned people. It's Chennai: that's unavoidable!

    I can think of a handful of names in our carnatic world. It's tough to stand the strain, and some of them didn't.
    Whoa, no! Whereas I am that old (sob) I was in the wrong place, growing up in a different culture. I'm old enough to have seen PSP himself, had I been born here.

    I've never seen Semmangudi. I sat behind him once, at a friend's arrangetram, but didn't even speak, as I was ill and feverish.

    The guy behind the Pole Star videos and book is the same guy who is behind the Paravadini music channel on youtube. Lalitha Ram... I went to the launch of the Pole Star book. I'd known the author online, but when he introduced himself I was amazed that he is a very young guy. So much knowledge and authority. As it happens, I know Kalidas too. I think I saw Harishankar play, in London. I remember being introduced to him there.

    It's easy to namedrop, but, honestly, as you know, it is a small world, and it's hard not to meet people.

    Regrets: I don't have time to watch videos just now. Maybe, erm... next year! Keep them coming for the sake of others, though.

    I would like to post a couple of pics of what is probably the last time I saw Trichy Sankaran, but the file upload is too big.

    January 2020, a full house, audience packing the stage. Just a couple of months before all that would stop until... we don't know when!

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Rama Krishnamurthy, Vital Rangan, Trichy Sankaran, K V Gopalakrishnan

    (hosted elsewhere and linked)
     
  20. ShriKrishix

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    Right, Thad ji. Even counting them, it is statistically less over the same time period. And, if you take into account the whole history, even discounting the longer period for which the original Indian classical music (what survives as Carnatic today) has been in existence, then such cases averaged over time approach 0, here. IMO, this huge difference can be attributed to the difference in origin of music and thus, the accompanying philosophy. A lengthy discussion, perhaps for another day.

    Wow, from our conversations that even included certain Carnatic technical terms, I was under the impression that you are Indian(at least Indian origin).
    So, let me get this straight, Thad ji - You settled here and learnt Mridangam. You also frequent Carnatic classical concerts, more so than, many other Indians I know of. If so, your passion for Carnatic is very admirable and something to learn from, Thad ji.
    Strange, have heard people outside India talking about Hindustani (starting with Beatles) but seldom Carnatic.
    Out of curiosity, where were you exposed to Carnatic and what/who inspired you so much to move here, learn Mridangam etc?


    I had to google Lalitharam ji. His face looked familiar. Then I remembered watching him in that Pole star video. I thought he was a Mridangam player too.

    So, as suspected, you have met nearly everyone. :) Btw, I don't consider it namedropping, but nice experiences to listen too.
    And, nice photographs, Thad ji, particularly, the first one.

    PS: And, about keeping the music coming, will definitely try to, as long as I can. Have got a bit more free time, for now, and also, don't have my instrument with me.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2021

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