Is there an HD650 in the speaker world?

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by fraggler, Oct 10, 2016.

  1. fraggler

    fraggler A Happy & Busy Life

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    I love the HD650 on different levels (sound and value), and was wondering if there was something similar in the speaker world. I think this could be a bigger question than belongs in the General Advice thread, but mods please move it there if I misjudged.

    From a sound profile standpoint, I assume it wouldn't be too hard to tailor a speaker system to fit (relaxed, refined, a touch of warmth, but still detailed).

    From a value perspective, I understand that it might be harder to pin down since speaker prices have a much larger range (I saw some at a show that cost more than my first house). At roughly $300, the HD650 isn't cheap, but it is readily approachable by people looking for great sound. And while it might not have the technicalities or wow factor of more expensive cans, it can easily be endgame for some since it scales so well and does so many things right. I guess another way to look at this part is to ask what people think I might have to spend to in the speaker world to get me what $300 does in the headphone world.

    I know amplification and source are big factors here, but if I can be greedy, I'd love something that sounded good out of a home theater receiver or small class D amp, but would scale much higher on say something like a Vidar.

    I have spent a little over $1K on my current headphone setup (and lost probably that amount over the years in losing transactions looking for it) and that is a sum far higher than I ever imagined spending on headphones. I don't know what the cap is for speakers for me. If it takes several thousand to get the same level of quality, then I might just stay budget/consumer fi and not even bother, but if I can get there within the same range or a little higher, then I might continue along this audiophools errand a little longer.
     
  2. thegunner100

    thegunner100 Hentai Master Chief

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    I'm starting to sound like a shill now, but I think the NY guys would probably agree that the Overnight Sensations MT are the closest to the hd650s of the speaker world (based on stuff that I've actually heard). At $138 for the kit, they're incredibly cheap for someone to build. If you have someone build it for you, it would still probably be cheaper and better sounding than commercial speakers of equal or greater value. That being said, I've enjoyed the OSMT more than the BMR phillarmonitors and the beryllium phillarmonitors when I had them set up in my living room. It could be placement issue or lack of power from my amp however. I also prefer the OSMT more than the LS50s, which have been FOTM since they've been out.

    Soundwise, the OSMT are fairly neutral and they have good extension for their size. They scale incredibly well from lower tiered dacs up to the Yggdrasil and are revealing of inputs on the dac (AES16 vs Yggdrasil USB). I don't have much experience with speaker amps but I found a noticeable difference when I borrowed a Odyssey Stratos + Sys and compared it to my Virtue ONE.3. They're ideally used in a smaller room but can sound good in a small/medium sized room with proper placement. Don't expect the bass extension of bigger speakers but they do have a large soundstaging with great imaging. In my bedroom, they have a punchy bass response with more subbass the further back I sit.
     
  3. cskippy

    cskippy Creamy warmpoo

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    I would be interested in a DIY speaker guide for dummies from @Marvey that would break down what kit to get, what drivers, based on sonic preferences, and how to assemble and tweak for your room. I've been reading through some of the speaker threads and it's very apparent that you can get great sound for the money going DIY.
     
  4. spwath

    spwath Hijinks master cum laudle

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    I would also like that.
    I like DIY stuff, would do it even if it wasnt saving much money.
    But there is so much in the speaker world, dont even know where to start.
     
  5. Dino

    Dino Friend

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    That reads like how I would describe the Vandersteen 2Ci. (I would add that I find the spatial qualities to be outstanding as well.) When I first heard the HD650 last November, one of the thoughts that crossed my mind was that it reminded me of my Vandersteens. I bought my Vandersteens new in 1990 and never thought of upgrading.

    They were stolen (along with a lot of other things) a few months ago. I will be replacing them with the current version, the Model 2Ce Signature II.

    http://vandersteen.com/categories/floorstanding-loudspeakers

    The Model 2Ce Signature II starts at $2,559. If I was interested in something similar, but less expensive I would choose one of two paths:

    1) A used Model 2Ci (or later version). Sometime in the production of the 2Ci, Vandersteen changed from foam to rubber surrounds. I have read that it is a real pain to re-foam because of the difficulty of removing and then replacing the speaker sock and having it coming out looking nice. My 12/1990 2Ci had the rubber surrounds, but I do not remember the date when Vandersteen made the switch. If a used pair can be found locally one can save quite a lot on shipping and people tend to price them for less because they are difficult to ship properly unless they kept the original box due to the four poles and a speaker sock design. You can see that here in the cutaway shot.

    [​IMG]

    2) A new Vandersteen Model 1Ci starting at $1,249. When I was shopping for the Model 2Ci back in 1990, I also listened to the 1Ci (or maybe it was a 1C). It is basically a smaller version of the Model 2 version. Same sound signature, IMO. Actually a used Model 1 version can be a real bargain for the same reasons as a used Model 2. I am not familiar with the woofer surround situation with this model.

    Both of these speakers have a reputation of sounding quite good with modest amplification and scaling with better amplification. When I bought mine I was driving it with an Adcom GFA-545 power amplifier (100 watts per channel Class AB) - a pretty modest amp - and enjoying it thoroughly. After a few years, I got interested in trying bi-amplifying them and bought a Harman-Kardon PA5800 (65 watts per channel Class AB) five channel power amplifier of which I was using four channels for the bi-amplification. The sound quality improved in general. I don't know exactly how to describe it but basically the sound opened up more spatially and sounded generally more vivid to me. (Those amps were stolen, as well.)

    I don't have a local dealer anymore. I will probably get the Model 2Ce Signature II from musicdirect.com.

    An aside: When I bought the 2Ci, they were Vandersteen's top of the line. I had read in an interview with Richard Vandersteen, back then, that he kept getting requests from dealers to create a more expensive model of speakers. He said if he knew how to make a better speaker he would. But he didn't know how to improve the (at the time) Model 2Ce so he would not create a more expensive speaker until he could. I thought that was cool. He eventually figured it out, as you can see on the Vandersteen website.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2016
  6. k4rstar

    k4rstar Britney fan club president

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    Not exactly 110% on topic, but as someone who knew next to nothing about speakers a few months ago (I still know very little), I found this a very fun watch. He also got an insane deal on a pair of Vandersteen 3A, one model above the 2Ce mentioned by @Dino above.

     
  7. murphythecat

    murphythecat GRU-powered uniformed trumpkin

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    harbeth is very close tonally to hd650
     
  8. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex SBAF's Imelda Marcos

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    Are you using the 55wpc version? Everything Dennis does falls apart without enough headroom. The Ragnarok wasn't enough for the BMRs. They also sound bad on all the tripath's I've tried.

    I've built the overnight sensations and they're not in the same class as the philharmonitors.
     
  9. Poleepkwa

    Poleepkwa Friend

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    If you want passives that sound good out of small class D amps then that usually means you should look at some bigger speakers and with your budget it will probably be down to DIY then. What about some active speakers?
     
  10. thegunner100

    thegunner100 Hentai Master Chief

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    Yeah, the 55wpc version. Sadly it was the highest powered amp we had when both the philharmonitors were brought over to my house.

    I don't expect the OSMT to beat other speakers in technicalities cause they're limited by driver and cabinet size, but they definitely do have an ease of use. They don't require a really expensive amp or room treatments to sound good.
     
  11. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    As an HD600 owner, a request for similar speakers would make me think of the big Tannoys that I heard at a friend's.

    The only problem is cost.
     
  12. Maxvla

    Maxvla Friend

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    I'd recommend the DIY Amiga kit. They should be slightly more relaxed than the OSMTs. I built a pair for my mother a few christmases ago and tested them at home before taking them over there. They sounded great. I'm just too lazy to make another pair since I do enjoy my Paradigms, they just aren't as good.

    http://www.parts-express.com/amiga-mt-tower-speaker-kit-with-knock-down-cabinet--300-7124

    I've lost the pictures I made of it, and they were posted on Changstar which is offline now, but if you do a google images search for Maxvla Amiga Tower you'll find several near the top in various stages. They are low res since google can't access changstar, but you can see how they look well enough.

    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
     
  13. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Oh man, I remember those back in the day. Super nice slightly downward sloping response and very open sounding.
     
  14. Rex Aeterna

    Rex Aeterna Friend

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    only class d amp i liked so far is from crown. the crown xls 2502 i have and consider it very nice sounding amp surprisingly and i never expected a class d amp sound this clean and nice. it has a bit overly smooth sound but clean. it doesn't have the weird graininess of things like the small chip amps do. crowns are traditional analog discrete class d amps. no chips. only for the crossover section and texas instrument chip is for tracking the power supply and input signals only. i know other people have different opinions but, i like them. i do have big iron amps as well in my stable as in use but found the crown class d not bad at all and can live with it as a main amp in most cases since it does it job very well and no matter how heavy the load(i driven 0.5ohm nominal loads on it before) it still keeps going with no blowing or no signs of over-heating.
     
  15. Rex Aeterna

    Rex Aeterna Friend

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    for speakers. most common speaker i know of and had experience that is very clean and has surprisingly very good clean bass response for the money range(can be found for 100-150) is polk monitor 10 but, with the peerless tweeters. the peerless black teeters are more laid-back response and roll off a bit in upper air response giving a pleasant clean sound in most room conditions. the silver tweeters are much brighter and have a piercing peak in the air response of 14k and up which polk fixed with their new tweeters but ordering tweeters can be bit pricey since i think they're like 80 bucks a piece.
     
  16. Poleepkwa

    Poleepkwa Friend

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    I have played around with that amp too (XLS2520) and also some hypex amps class D amps. Those are indeed very nice amps.
     
  17. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

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    The short answer is - no there isn't a HD650 of the speaker world.

    Here's my explanation why. First we need to take a look why there is such a thing as the "HD650 of the headphone world". That's because headphones at their current state are not a mature technology. I'll give you three examples why it is so -
    1. There is no standardized way how to measure headphone tonal response.
    2. [Thus] there is no standard on how a tonally neutral headphone should measure.
    3. [Thus] the spread in AFR measurements between supposedly "Reference" headphones is immense.
    The HD650 is one of the if not the tonally best sounding headphone out there. Sure, it lacks sub-bass and highs are a bit wonky (not annoyingly so), but it's better than 95% of other headphones. And here's the kicker - judging by how the HD800 was voiced, it was a lucky coincidence that we got the HD650 that sounds like it does. It's the lucky candy from the box that actually tastes like chocolate.

    Speakers are a mature technology and there the rules are set. If someone is producing crap, then anyone with 80$ can buy a decent USB measurement mic and verify that. So stay above 150 - 200 and you should be safe. Sure there are some stinkers here and there, but its NOWHERE as bad as it is with headphones.

    A good idea would be stating your listening preferences and listening environment. With every speaker there will be compromises, but they're well documented.

    P.S. No speaker is so awesome that it can't be made terrible with bad room acoustics.
     
  18. Rex Aeterna

    Rex Aeterna Friend

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    i just think most limitations with headphones is size thing. can only do so much with a small full-range speaker but, they have been getting better but, don't knock some older stuff. there is lot of headphones from the 70's and early 80's that perform better than lot of modern headphones in clean response. i do agree that best thing do for op if can listen if can but, know if have luxary to due o so due to living area and if they specific audio shops other than guitar shop and best buy. i know there is craiglist but, have watch some people sometimes. i also agree speakers are more better voiced and lot cleaner than headphones in general. speakers been pretty much perfected since the 60's. there is lot of turds but, there is few sleepers and great ones for the money out there.
     
  19. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

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    I'm not knocking on the old stuff, it's also a good indicator of the current state of affairs. How something 30-40 years old can trounce most of the new stuff? It's not like the HD600/650 is very fresh also.

    As for shop listening, you always need to keep in mind its limitations. Headphones are safe to buy depending on shop/meet impressions, but speakers - not so much. Your listening environment will impact the 200Hz-10Khz due to reflective and diffractive properties. Under 200Hz the room will dictate rather than impact the tonal response.

    If possible, take the speakers to your listening space and listen to them there as long as you need/is possible.
     
  20. Koloth

    Koloth Klingon SBAF Ambassador - Friend

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    I always felt the 3-Series from UK's Acoustic Energy did a lot of the same things right, that the HD650 does so well: Good bass (albeit not the strongest of sub bass), very nice mids with a touch of emphasis on the lower mids and good but not worldclass detail in the treble without ever sounding aggressive. All in all a highly enjoable and cohesive sound, that works great as an allrounder for all sorts of music + movies. Added benefit: Because of their front-ported enclosure design they can be placed far closer to rear walls than lots of other speakers: http://www.acoustic-energy.co.uk/three-series/

    I think depending on where you live a pair of 305's should run you anywhere between 1200-2000$ new. A pair of 301's should go for anywhere between 500-900$ new.

    ==========

    About 10-5 years ago Wharfedale produced the Opus2 series. Those were extraordinary speakers that were very similar to HD650's. I havent heard the replacement Jade series, but they might be worth checking out: http://wharfedale.co.uk/product-list.php?cid=1
    Or keep your eyes open for Opus2-1, Opus2-2, Opus2-3 speakers on the used market.

    ==========

    And finally, the ultimate price-doesnt-matter recommendation: The Triangle Electroacoustique Magellan series is f**king incredible. I dont know any speaker in the price range that does male vocals so well, and they have beautiful bass warmth. They might be a little more forward in the highs than the HD650 tuning though. Still, extraordinary speakers. But of course expensive ones: The Magellan Cello goes for about 11'000$/pair, and the Duetto goes for about 5000$/pair. Still I thought they were at least worth mentioning: http://www.triangle-fr.com/magellan_en
    They also have numerous more affordable options. I cant vouch for the sound on those, since I've never had the opportunity to audition them, but maybe they're worth researching.
     

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