JudeGate 3? Shut the f*** up Jude.

Discussion in 'Headphone Measurements' started by purr1n, Jan 17, 2018.

  1. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Jude just added more measurements.

    • They are a bit difficult to read given the choice of colors (gray and black). In one case there is a reversal of the colors where the HD800S went from gray to black, and the HD800 went from black to gray further increasing confusion.

    • In most cases Jude's measurements actually show HD800S H2 > HD800 H2 and the reverse for H3, in agreement with most every other random site. However, the differences are in the order of 4 dBs which is relatively small. Given Jude's commentary and labels, I wonder if he is playing with the seating of the headphones to "cook" the numbers. Some headphones are also weird: HD800 49760 seems to perform very poorly relative to the other headphones.

    • The AP measurements show HD800S H2 > HD800 H2 and HD800S H3 < HD800 H3. Even at 100 dB SPL where the differences have been observed to diminish relative to 90 dB SPL. AP measurements DO NOT agree well with Jude's results at the bottom where he actually used blue color for the HD800 and 100 dBSPL to test.

    • The B&K measurements show HD800S H2 > HD800 H2 while HD800S H3 is similar to HD800 H3. Again note the SPL is set to 100 dB. B&K measurements DO NOT agree well with Jude's results at the bottom where he actually used blue color for the HD800 and 100 dBSPL to test.

    • Jude's tone measurements DO NOT seem agree well with his H2 original measurements.

    Based on all of these, I think Jude's continued position of:

    "It seems pretty clear to me at this point -- based on the measurements (by us and others), based on feedback from Sennheiser, and based on feedback from several acoustical engineers in the audioindustry not in the employ of Sennheiser -- that the assumption that Sennheiser deliberately added harmonic distortion (specifically, H2) to the Sennheiser HD800S is not accurate."

    Is inaccurate (AP and B&K don't agree well with his results at 100 dB), premature (the original measurements were obviously insufficient and questionable), and irresponsible (claiming to be more accurate given all the back pedaling, editing and obvious lack of experience is not responsible journalism, specially considering how he is presenting himself as the "greater precision" guy) .

    On the other hand, Sony most be happy that Jude is fighting the fight for their HD800S:

    https://www.head-fi.org/threads/can...on-rmaf-shanghai.860196/page-13#post-13994474
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2018
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  2. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Anyhow, it is what it is.
     
  3. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    Jude should first build up a good library of measurements before making any statements. As of now, we have zero idea about the characteristics of his distortion measurements (or any other measurements). There is simply too little data. All measurement systems, no matter how expensive, will have their own idiosyncrasies. For all we know, his measurement system might record more second order distortion than others.

    The current measurements of the HD800S and HD800 presented by Jude are one-off measurements. It would be helpful if Jude had an idea of what set of measurements to present, and then to present them consistently over many many more different headphones. Cherry picked one-off measurements, here or there, and seemlingly always made to discredit others' measurements for the benefit of his sponsors (or potential sponsors') gear are not useful in the long run.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2018
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  4. Dotard

    Dotard Acquaintance

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    Simply amazes me how after Jude spent all this money on measurement gear, he can't for the life of him plot two measurements on a graph without using a legend such that one is black and the other is slightly less black - and he doesn't even use these color codes consistently.
     
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  5. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    ob·fus·ca·tion
    ˌäbfəˈskāSH(ə)n/
     
  6. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Exactly
     
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  7. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    Either that, or his supa-advanced expensive gear won't do color: his software is too DIY'ish, programmed as an afterthought to the advanced hardware by some dude in his garage.
     
  8. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    I think he is not pushing the buttons right. I mean his first two distortion measurements had one headphone labeled black and the second one gray. Three measurements down an the gray and black colors are now swapped. To make matters worse the black is now in the foreground, so it's very difficult to see what is going on with the gray.

    It's a complete disaster.

    Not only that, there is literally 5 or 6 sites with measurements on the HD800 vs the HD800S and all of them concluded that the HD800S has more H2 than the HD800 below 100 Hz. All of them. Even AP at 100 dB had this result.

    And then his original H2 results don't match his later results.

    It's like he is just pushing random buttons and see what comes out while self-proclaiming himself an expert.
     
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  9. Outerspace Wasabi

    Outerspace Wasabi Wow, I made it this far without being a friend?

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    I've actually had many of my posts deleted over at HF for being critical of a sponsored product. I still have a message from a moderator regarding my deleted posts after I called them out in a thread.
     
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  10. Deep Funk

    Deep Funk Deep thoughts - Friend

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    He could ask for help in getting it right. Instead he keeps playing the "audio messiah." It is becoming so sad I cannot make jokes about it anymore. Time to ignore this thread.
     
  11. Jinxy245

    Jinxy245 Friend

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  12. I_want_all_the_tacos

    I_want_all_the_tacos Almost "Made"

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    Sorry to dig up an old thread as I didn't know the best place to put this. But I am guessing those of you following this topic might be interested in a separate, independent measurement comparison of HD800 vs HD800S.

    In the headphones subreddit there is a very popular user that works as an acoustic engineer in Europe for a private company that apparently measures and designs headphone/IEM transducers for audio companies that hire them. This guy's day job is measuring and analyzing headphones. He personally owns an HD800S and borrowed a friend's HD800 and measured them on a GRAS 43AG with an Audio Precision analyzer so his setup is similar to Jude's. Here is his post which includes all the information and graphs. Here is the link to just his imgur album with annotations on the graphs.

    TL;DR: When measured at 100 dB SPL with a 20 Hz sine wave, "... we can see that at this low frequency the HD800S produces higher H2 (2nd order distortion) and lower H3 (3rd order distortion) than the HD800. In fact in this case the H2 of the HD800S is a little over 14 dB louder, while the H3 is about 8 dB more quiet."

    Take that as you will. He admits this was a sample size of 1 for each headphone, but he is confident in the results he obtained from his measurements of the units. He can't explain why Jude's measurements are so different.
     
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  13. PacoTaco

    PacoTaco Friend

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    Iirc, someone in that thread brought up that Sennheiser is a major sponsor for Head-Fi and Jude may have fudged the numbers by playing at a lower volume.
     
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  14. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Jude did cooked the plots. But more importantly, he cooked the conclusion.
     
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  15. brencho

    brencho Loves pumping iron (Moderator)

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    Wow, well in science if someone fabricates data, they get fired lol
     
  16. ksat90

    ksat90 Rando

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    Well in many human sciences (psychology, biology), these practices of fudging data or cherry picking results were pretty common, and not called out some years ago and is biting us in the ass now. Also because the variance in human-related measurements are usually really high, so re-measuring it could give you suddenly "better" or "worse" results.

    Unfortunately the regular person doesn't understand (I would assume the same for most people reading head-fi) these processes and whatever is marketed to them as "scientific" goes a long way to be very good "evidence" for a particular conclusion.

    Thank god (you guys) for this site. And all the data/experience here.
     
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  17. Ardacer

    Ardacer needs to read more, post less

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    There's human science, then there's Jude's science, not to be confused

    Though I'm probably not the best guy to say this :D
     

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