Life after Yggdrasil: Watering the Ash

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by Torq, Mar 1, 2017.

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  1. dmckean44

    dmckean44 In a Sherwood S6040CP relationship

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    Audio Note equation:

    circuit from electronics textbook + fancy case + exotic components = $120,000
     
  2. earnmyturns

    earnmyturns Smartest friend

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    Flowery indeed, and utterly misleading. Stockhausen's "Mantra" was written for the brothers Alfons and Aloys Kontarsky in 1970. I heard them play it live in Lisbon back in the original tour for the piece, one of my most vivid musical experiences ever. They recorded it for DGG at around that time, I still own that record. That recording was remastered for CD later but was out of print for a long time. The CD been more recently reissued by the non-profit Stockhausen-Verlag. I got it last year, and listened to it when I got it through a Bifrost Multibit into my headphone system and later through the Yggdrasil into my speaker system, reliving that magical experience more fully than I could have hoped for. Anybody who claims that Schiit multibit DACs can't reproduce the tonal complexity of the original music is either deaf or a pretentious snob. In my experience, several "Mantra" performances recorded later short-change the originals. I've not heard the one that "Stereophile" writes about, but I'm not quite holding my breath.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2017
  3. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

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  4. drfindley

    drfindley Secretly lives in the Analog Room - Friend

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    Alright, all this talk makes me think you really need to hear an EAR DAC. I'm nervous to travel with it up to Seattle (mine is becoming kinda rare), but I'd love to have you come down and listen. I have Gungnir Multibit for comparison. Let me know. I know it's not your regular listening environment and that changes things, but the invite is open. Also, if there are some hard to get DACs that are easy to get in the bay area, we could bring them over and have an auditioning session.
     
  5. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    Tactical Audio?
    Excuse if this is off topic (or just ignore) but... actually high-quality, or expensive?

    I have the impression that high-price audio has spawned a high-price supply chain. You do stuff with genuinely high-tolerance (wait: I think I mean small tolerence. Like map scales, it's confusing) electronics, and I wonder if the named components that have become a badge of audio is stuff that you have any time for? Or just hype?
     
  6. bengo

    bengo Friend

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    Transformers in particular can get very expensive, note the price difference between @Donald North 's two versions of Stellaris for example:
    "The balanced inputs will be accommodated through custom Audio Note UK balanced input transformers - the best available."
    ... and don't ask about the Silver Stellaris. Like Ferraris and so on, which generally don't have a big price sticker in the windscreen - if you have to ask...

    The Eddie Current Studio and Aficionado threads are also an interesting read, if you're interested in the effect (and costs) of transformers on the sound from someone who knows their Schiit (aka @Marvey)
     
  7. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    I appreciate the invite and I think that'll be a lot of fun. I'll see what we can do the next time we're in CA, which is probably around Halloween. Thanks!

    I'm not sure how sustainable the "Life after Yggdrasil" model is for this sort of thing anyway (it started as me auditioning units in order to find one to buy) ... days of warm-up, three days of listening (which sometimes takes a full week to get through) and then often several days to get it written up properly.

    A simpler, less intensive, approach might wind up being better. In most casesit's really only the minutiae that comes up/changes after the first day. So less listening, a much shorter write-up (focusing purely on the sound and leaving all the other stuff for readers to go find themselves), and probably getting through more units as a result.
     
  8. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    Some of them are genuinely high quality - I can't speak for all of course.

    Of note, though, is the fact that just because something is assembled with all "best in class" components, doesn't mean the end result will be any good. If it did, many of the ESS-based wonder-DACs sold direct out of China would sound a lot better than they do.

    I have no doubt that this is the case in some areas. Transformers, capacitors, wire are high on that list. And in some of those cases there are measurable differences in the performance of components that carry a common specification. Though, probably not surprisingly, not all of the "high end" parts wind up being the ones that measure better ...
     
  9. insidious meme

    insidious meme Ambivalent Kumquat

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  10. CCC

    CCC New

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    I don't know if I have similar sonic preferences as Torq, but I continue to be damned impressed with the reviews he does.
    Thank you Torq for the effort you put in help us determine what dacs might be of interest to us. It is very helpful.
    I'm hoping your writeup of Yggdrasil vs Gungnir MB vs ?? is still forthcoming.
     
  11. drfindley

    drfindley Secretly lives in the Analog Room - Friend

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    I'd welcome it! Hit me up closer to October and we can figure it out.
     
  12. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    Yep, just a question of "when" and not "if".

    It'll be this month at least, and might happen ahead of the Pontus write-up (the auditioning of which is now complete).
     
  13. AudioFriend

    AudioFriend Facebook Friend

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    He and his friends are the only reviewers who I can still trust in. Torq seems to be a Schiit fan, but if you remove that bias what remains are well written, easy to understand, comprehensive, helpful reviews and comparisons. If only I could say the same about those who do reviewing as a job at hi-fi magazines...

    I hope Torq and his friends here will continue this hobby with the same attitude for a long time, their numbers will grow, and maybe they will eventually check other kinds of hi-fi equipment (headphones, h.amps, portables, etc.) too.

    Thank you for all of you boys!
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2017
  14. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    You know, not to pick on you in particular (so don't take it that way), but this keeps coming up ... either in open threads or privately (and not just here), particularly from Randos and various obvious noobs, and I'm getting more than a bit tired of it. So, let's get a few things straight*.

    I have a bias towards value, not any particular company.

    Value means a sensible intersection between price and performance. Cheap with poor performance is not good value. Neither is expensive with good, but not excellent performance. The middle ground is the rarest part of this hobby and most companies are simply not focused there. SBAF does have value as a core mantra. So that's where the focus tends to be ... the ultra-high-end, or random low-cost lucky-bargain, is simply not the majority of the market. Don't blame me because you can't find a 5w, fully-balanced, competent, headphone amplifier and pre-amp anywhere else for $400 (and still have any chance of warranty service or a pre-purchase audition).

    I digress ...

    For my DAC reviews I use Yggdrasil as the principal point of comparison for several reasons:
    1. I already owned one.
    2. This all started out as me looking for something better - which carries the obvious, if unstated, reality that I believe such a thing exists.
    3. It's a generally well-regarded DAC - and not just here.
    4. It frequently regarded as being at the top of the curve when it comes to price/performance (i.e. value).
    5. They are easy enough to find in the wild that lots of people have them, have heard them, or can hear them, without much effort.
    I could easily do this process using a Chord DAVE ($13,500 to you ...) or a Linn Klimax DS/3 ($23,500) or, hell, any of a number of other priced-like-a-small-car DACs, as the primary reference point ... but how relevant would that be to most posters here? Not very. Nor is some takes-12-weeks-to-get-if-it-hasn't-been-discontinued-before-it-arrives no-name/new-vendor product from god knows where. Outside of meets, which are far from ideal, most people will simply not get to hear these units at all, let alone at enough length, and frequently enough, for them to be useful references.

    I'm NOT going to make my primary reference something that I don't enjoy listening to as much as something I already own. That'd be ridiculous.

    A few things to note here, if you want to hold on to the notion that my bias is to anything but value:

    The Schiit gear I own accounts for less than 1/10th of the value of my current headphone rigs (and a far smaller fraction if we include my speaker setup or my portable rigs). It consists of 2x Yggdrasil (one bought used, and which I now keep purely as a convenience in my review-stack), 1x Gungnir MB, 1x Ragnarok, a Mani, and then the prototype Jil and Eitr units. I have much more gear, from many other brands.

    None of these units are the most expensive of their type/class in my setup - quite the reverse; they are, without exception, the cheapest. I have a couple of things in my audio setup that cost more, individually, than that entire line-up of Schiit gear. That they compete with some of the other stuff I have at all is a testament to nothing other than value. Hell, I have individual tubes that cost more than any of those items.

    The most expensive pure-DAC that I have purchased new (and still own) is a Chinese product, from a company I had NEVER heard of at the time. And I gave that a glowing review. Hardly an indication that I have something against products from China, nor that I require them to be cheap. The proof is in the listening.

    The highest rated DACs I've heard are not from Schiit (though Schiit remains in the top group at this time and I still feel is the best value).

    Even with two Yggdrasil's on hand, I've bought, and used, units, also more expensive, from companies like PS Audio and Auralic with orders placed for several other units in similar categories.

    -

    And then this is a shit-load of work, and not exactly cheap to do (you'll no doubt note the myriad units I've bought, from various vendors, purely to review here, and have then sold on a 60-70% of what I paid, never mind the shipping and insurance costs on this shit). You know what I get out of it? A nice warm feeling that I might just be helping those interested in getting the maximum enjoyment out of their music without having to mortgage their house to do it.

    There's no money in it. There aren't even any DISCOUNTS in it, because I refuse to play that game. There's definitely no glamour in it (perhaps the "Facebook" generation gives a toss about "Likes", but I don't).

    The reward is purely in, hopefully, getting normal users to a better place musically as cheaply as possible.

    And you know what kills that reward more effectively than anything else?

    People levying accusations/statements about notions of bias (I am biased, but not in the direction so many seem to want to believe), sometimes aggressively, over and over when they, themselves, contribute four-fifths-of-f**k-all in terms of content or even meaningful commentary.

    To avoid further such faulty assertions, future DAC reviews**, will be cast in the context of whatever the best DAC I own is (which is about to change, significantly). That'll no doubt be super useful, as the thread title will indicate - as that's going to be "Random DACs Compared to a DAC You'll Likely Never Afford". So, don't be surprised when some random data-sheet DAC du-jour gets poorly received next to THAT.

    --

    *Yes, this probably belongs in the "Have we become Schiit and Massdrop shills?" thread.
    **In the exceedingly unlikely event I bother.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2017
  15. caecillius

    caecillius New

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    NVM.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2017
  16. Luckbad

    Luckbad Traded in a unicorn for a Corolla

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    @Torq, your efforts are appreciated by non-randos.

    Maybe we should move this entire thread to a Friends-only section, thus eliminating the value for randos but keeping it useful to everyone else.
     
  17. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    The words of appreciation are, well, appreciated - but that's really not what this is about, so before it potentially goes in that direction let's not turn this into a stream of "thank yous".
     
  18. Elnrik

    Elnrik Super Friendly

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    I think removing the content from public consumption would be a sin - way too much of his time, money, and effort would be wasted. As he said, the goal is to get "normal users to a better place musically as cheaply as possible".

    This doesn't mean we need to let every Tom, Dick and Harry post unappreciative and ignorant drivel. Perhaps the product forums should be read-only to randos. Plenty of other sections to participate in until you get familiar with the community.

    Too bad. You'll accept my thank you and like it. :cool: hehehe
     
  19. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

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    I suggest that comments to this thread would be best served discussing DACs that we have heard or asking Torq specific questions that he may not have covered in a review. Meta comments about the relative worth of Torq's reviews aren't just fruitless, they're noise.

    Just my $.02
     
  20. bengo

    bengo Friend

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    I haven't heard the Gungnir Multibit personally, but I always assumed, given roughly 2x price difference and the fact that people describe them as "close", that it would be ahead of Yggdrasil in value terms. Heck, I might end up selling my own Yggdrasil and take a small step down as @Marvey has done, just to free up some cash for other upgrades (either in audio or other hobbies).

    @Torq, hopefully you will touch on this in your forthcoming Schiit comparo...
     

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