Life after Yggdrasil: Watering the Ash

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by Torq, Mar 1, 2017.

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  1. bengo

    bengo Friend

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    No, the DAVE is not poop, it's quite good (if you can get past the sticker price) but I personally would take a Yggdrasil or Pavane instead, regardless of price. In a nutshell I would describe the Hugo2 as 'brittle' or 'hard', DAVE 'relaxed with very sharp edges', Yggy1 'quite relaxed with slightly sharp edges sometimes' and Pavane2 'quite relaxed without sharp edges' (but not 'soft' IMO).

    The DAVE is more portable and makes more sense if your chosen cans sound good with the built-in headphone amp.

    Rob Watts wrote some stuff about why transients with DS sound inherently soft(er), look on head-fi in probably the DAVE or Hugo2 thread. The DAVE and Hugo2 which I have heard did not sound soft. They are using PAM not DS, and at a much higher clock rate.

    If you liked the DirectStream then you could also look out for a DS Junior (Torq said they are close IIRC) or even an older PerfectWave. Some impressions of the PWD on this very forum from Marv and others. I think Marv also thought the PWD v1 with v2 upgrade sounded different (better??) than the PWD v2 fresh from factory.
     
  2. johnjen

    johnjen Doesn’t want to be here but keeps posting anyways

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    I was amazed at how close my PWD mk l-II was to my Yggdrasil, during my initial impression.
    After the Yggdrasil settled in and I listened at length, the differences were more apparent, even so they weren't that far apart.
    I still have my PWD as a backup dac, which will come in handy when my turn at the v.2 upgrade rolls around.

    But all in all the PWD mk I-II is no slouch.

    JJ
     
  3. gefski

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    You're "helping out" the PWD by feeding it via Rednet - AES?
     
  4. johnjen

    johnjen Doesn’t want to be here but keeps posting anyways

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    At that time, no.
    AOIP wasn't even a glimmer in anyone's eyes at that point.
    I was using a tweako USB feed, which would now lag way behind my AOIP feed by quite a bit, what with all of the fussing I've done to the entire digital audio chain.

    Although when my turn rolls around for the v.2 upgrade, that will be what I will use to feed my PWD as the 'backup dac'.
    That might just prove to be rather interesting, and if I can manage it I might be able to run both the PWD and the Yggdrasil-v.2 at the same time with the same signal from the output of the AOIP chain via SPDIF and AES all balanced into The Rok amp.

    JJ
     
  5. frenchbat

    frenchbat Almost "Made"

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    If you have the snake for your rednet, you can feed signal to 2 different dacs through aes. That's what I do, and it helps tremendously to compare.

     
  6. johnjen

    johnjen Doesn’t want to be here but keeps posting anyways

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    I don't have a duplicate output stream (dual Mutec 3's, nor the silver cables etc).
    But I can swap the silver SPIF and AES cables back and forth and run them both into each dac, so thru repeated tests , especially if the differences are easily noticeable, and then triangulate backwards, a technique I am fairly used to doing.

    And after narrowing the differences and similarities between the 4 options, then I will zero in on them with greater focus.

    JJ
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2018
  7. MyPetSasquatch

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    I have a new PS Audio DirectStream DAC that I've been enjoying the last several weeks. Last week I found a great used price on a mint Metrum Pavane L1 and snapped it up. This is actually my second go-around with the Pavane after I regrettably sold my prior model back in October in a short-lived attempt to downsize. Soooo, all of a sudden I have a couple TOTL DACs that I can swap back and forth between in my setup.

    Full system:
    Intel NUC running Roon ROCK > Pavane or DirectStream > PS Audio BHK preamp > miniDSP DDRC-22A w/Dirac > Benchmark AHB2 amp > PSB Imagine T3 speakers

    The DirectStream is running Red Cloud firmware, the Pavane being a L1 model. Both are being used with USB input from my Roon ROCK server. My listening room is also fully treated with a ton of GIK Acoustics traps and panels and I'm using Dirac between my pre and power amp for room correction.

    They're very different sounding in some ways, and similar in others:

    The DS has a stunning clarity and is the most revealing DAC I've heard, both in terms of microdetail but also in terms of imaging. There's this pinpoint precision to the soundstage that I've never heard with any other DAC. It's hard to describe, but other DACs I've had in my system throw a soundstage where musicians and instruments are three-dimensional but have a sort of ethereal quality that never lets you forget you're listening to a recording. With the DS, performers have this uncanny tangibility and density that gives them an eerie physical presence in the room. The only way I can describe it is it's the difference between having a hologram floating in the room versus a real person standing there.

    Tonally, the PS Audio unit is neutral across the board, but has better treble reproduction than the Metrum. The Pavane is a bit laid-back up top and cymbal crashes can sometimes feel a bit 2-dimensional and indistinct. In comparison, the DS has this incredibly lifelike quality with natural ringing and harmonics galore to cymbals. Again, the DS manages to make cymbals just sound "real" and seem to hang in the air. The downside is that on some tracks the DS sounds a shade too airy, and you lose some tonal richness. It's the difference in hearing a lot of pick surface noise when a guitar is strummed versus the more fuller tone of the strings and vibration. I hesitate to call the DS bright, but it's certainly unforgiving on a lot of tracks, but this could just be due to my speakers and system synergy.

    On that note, where the Pavane excels is with tonal richness, fullness and inner detail. It's slightly more forward, but sounds more "rounded" and rich in the way that a close-mic'd acoustic guitar is, but it's certainly not "soft" or lacking definition and detail. I wouldn't call the Pavane warm, but it has more body than the DS. There's this comfortable neutrality that the Pavane does so damn well that's really addictive and musical but never feels like you're sacrificing detail. There's a "just right" quality that's chameleon-like in it's ability to convey appropriate rhythm and pace with slow- and fast-paced music alike. This is the least digital-sounding DAC I've owned and the closest analogue to a truly high-end vinyl setup. The DS sounds just slightly digital in comparison as it doesn't have the same level of inner richness, but that's not to say that the DS sounds even remotely digital compared to even the best delta-sigma DACs I've heard.

    As an aside, the Pavane is also the quietest DAC I've had in my system. Putting my ear up next to my tweeter, the noise floor is barely perceptible while the DS is a noticeably louder. I read somewhere that this is a function of the FPGA or DSD conversion process in the DS, but I could be mistaken about that.

    You really can't go wrong with either of these DACs, and I'm honestly not sure which one I'll keep. I'm leaning towards the PS Audio as the pace at which Ted Smith, Paul McGowan & Co. are releasing firmwares is impressive as well as the consistent improvements each firmware seems to bring. The PS Audio sounds more technically accomplished, but the Metrum has a magical "rightness" and tugs at me in a more emotional way. This is going to be a tough decision to make...
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2018
  8. Thenewerguy009

    Thenewerguy009 Friend

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    Did you try lowering the gain on the PS Audio?

    BTW are the power cables/IC matched for both DACs or are you using different cables?
     
  9. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

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    With respect to the DirectStream, engage the actuator if you're noticing noise. It's a resistor that lowers volume and therefore noise floor...20db if I recall correctly. Worked great for me.
     
  10. Telstar

    Telstar Bottom 1% of posters on SBAF

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    I haven’t read that thread but I also do software upsampling 8x with closed-form filter.
    Works the best with r2r dacs, on which I do another 4x or keep it NOS.

    Upgrade path is not easy at all :(
     
  11. Telstar

    Telstar Bottom 1% of posters on SBAF

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    DRC “flattens” the room response and also reduces the difference between DACs. This is known.
    Interesting your mention of the Master7, which is in my list as well.
     
  12. MyPetSasquatch

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    Sorry, I should have clarified that the noise floor isn't perceptible at the listening position, only with my head near the speaker. I find with the DS the noise floor is apparent with my head about 18 inches away where with the Metrum my ear has to be up to the speaker grill. Not enough to worry about being audible, just something I always check for as I had a noisier amp prior to my Benchmark AHB2.

    As for interconnects, etc. the setup is exactly the same. I'm literally just swapping DACs back and forth.

    Spent more time listening today and found with the DS in the system I feel much less like swapping back.

    @msommers Are you using the Bridge II input on your DSJ? Which inputs have you tried and were there noticeable differences between them?
     
  13. econaut

    econaut Almost "Made"

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    Can you elaborate, please? The DAC is in the chain after the DRC, at least in my case (Dirac + Gungnir Multibit). Thinking about getting a Yggdrasil A2, that's why I'm particularly interested.
     
  14. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

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    Apologies as I glossed over this one.

    I have used USB (from laptop), Bridge, Coax (from Squeezebox) and Toslink (from Xbox). Actually still have my Lynx AES16 installed so could actually compare all 5 using my main computer as I think the motherboard has most of these connections.

    That said, I don't know if the MCTH w/ HD650 stock could resolve the differences like my speakers or previous headphone setup could. I used to have a Regen Amber but sold it to a person with a DS who used USB -- this person said they noticed zero difference so (A) they couldn't hear a difference or (B) PSA's USB interface is actually quite good (I suspect the latter).

    One thing I do know is that changing sampling rates before the DSJr/DS is kind of pointless since it's resampled in the unit anyways.
     
  15. MyPetSasquatch

    MyPetSasquatch Friend

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    Yeah I noticed in the manual specifically says that the USB is the "recommended" input which really surprised me considering that USB is so rarely the preferred option for the folks that make a hobby of trying out different input methods. PS Audio seems to be saying they put a ton of effort into the USB, and it doesn't seem to be an off-the-shelf USB board implementation like M2Tech or Amanero. I'm curious to try the Bridge II, but honestly don't know if it's necessary. I don't feel that I'm missing out on anything with USB, so I might not bother.
     
  16. winders

    winders boomer

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    The designer of the DirectStream DAC says all of the inputs are pretty much equal. If one is better, it would be the I2S input.

    The Bridge II card sounds no better than USB assuming the USB signal is coming from a device like the ultraRendu. I had an ultraRendu/Teddy Pardo LPS setup acting as a Roon endpoint and compared that to Bridge II acting a Roon endpoint. There was a difference in sound but I would not classify one as better or worse than the other. So I went with the Bridge II card for simplicity. It also offers MQA which I currently have no interest in but who knows if that will change. The downside is the Bridge II supports only DSD64 only while using the USB and I2S interfaces support DSD128.

    The DirectStream does best when you feed it content at its native resolution and let it upsample it. It upsamples everything to 20x DSD64. You end up with 30 bit DSD1280. Here is great thread with the designer and firmware creator, Ted Smith, discussing this:

    https://forum.psaudio.com/t/dsj-roon-with-or-without-hqp/5565
     
  17. Telstar

    Telstar Bottom 1% of posters on SBAF

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    The more you equalize the FR with DRC or other means (better before the DAC ofc), the less you perceive differences between DACs. You may not experience a change as dramatic as other people in this thread.
     
  18. gefski

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    Agreed. "Editorializing" the f/r for personal enjoyment may be great, but for comparing gear, one needs to go "down to zero".
     
  19. MyPetSasquatch

    MyPetSasquatch Friend

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    I'm going to respectfully disagree. My Dirac filter is the last thing my chain before the power amp. I have to say that using room correction has made the differences between components much more obvious than before I tried using DSP. Turning off the Dirac filter on my miniDSP results in a sound that's comparatively hazy, indistinct and has major nulls and peaks in the frequency response. It's much hard to extract soundstage cues and general detail with all of those room interactions. With Dirac on, I'm no longer hearing room interactions and instead can listen to what best approximates the original signal from the speakers before the room creates issues. To be honest, the vast majority of DACs have a frequency response that's flat enough that DSP won't "correct" for it because there actually aren't any frequency anomalies to address that are caused as far up the chain as the DAC.
     
  20. Telstar

    Telstar Bottom 1% of posters on SBAF

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    So, you are doing A/D and D/A (with the poor DACs* present in the miniDSP) after the DAC and yet you notice a change in sound if you change the DAC (whose job is relegated to a mere transport)?
    What I said was wrt DAC only. The amplifiers, speakers and even the jitter/noise before the miniDSP still matter as much as before.

    --
    * I can link some measurements.
     

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