Life after Yggdrasil: Watering the Ash

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by Torq, Mar 1, 2017.

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  1. MyPetSasquatch

    MyPetSasquatch Friend

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    Sorry, what does "wrt" mean?

    Think about it though: what is Dirac correcting for? It's correctly frequency and time domain anomalies at the listening position. Essentially it's evening out the frequency response to whatever your pre-chosen target is and improving impulse response. A DAC should never create time and frequency issues in the signal unless it's terribly designed. Any of the characteristics that make DACs sound different from one another shouldn't be affected by the Dirac filter, and those unique characteristics are even more clearly heard once the source of the highest distortion--the room--are addressed.

    Anecdotally, I actually used to be a big believer in maintaining an analog-only chain after the DAC. I spent a lot of money on GIK Acoustic panels and traps trying to address nulls and spikes in the frequency response in my room, and finally gave up and tried Dirac when I still couldn't get the sound I wanted. Diract was a big improvement, and I actually started selling off my expensive equipment for cheaper components thinking that Dirac would make everything sound the same regardless of upstream components. Well, I was dead wrong. Swapping in a crappier preamp and DAC made the whole system sound much worse even after a lot of tweaking in Dirac. It was then that I realized that the differences between components were even more audible using Dirac than without it, which ran completely counter to my expectations.

    What miniDSP module do you have measurements for? I'm using a miniDSP DDRC-22A. The A/D and D/A conversions are audibly transparent to my ears, and I'm pretty picky about that, although my ears aren't perfect of course.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2018
  2. Clemmaster

    Clemmaster Friend

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    With respect to.
     
  3. maverickronin

    maverickronin Friend

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    I'm a huge believer in corrective DSPs and I agree with you that in general it would help you to better evaluate other gear, but I have to say, your chain strikes me as quite bizarre.

    If the upstream DAC is "better" than the miniDSP then putting the miniDSP downstream will just bring the quality "down" to the miniDSP's level.

    If miniDSP's DDRC series' DACs really are transparent then you should get the DDRC-22DA (digital in, analog out) instead and skip the Pavane or DirectStream in the middle.

    If the Pavane or DirectStream DACs are actually "better" then you should use the DDRC-22D (digital in, digital out) before the DAC and keep all the processing in the digital domain.

    There's no reason to add another A/D and D/A stage there and, room correction aside, it is degrading the rest of signal.

    Also FWIW, I find most DACs to sound the same and wouldn't be surprised if the DDRC-22A, with all processing turned off, actually was transparent but I still would never choose the DDRC-22A over the DDRC-22DA or DDRC-22D for correction from digital sources unless I ended up with a smokin' deal on it. From a theoretical perspective it's just inelegant, regardless of the results, especially when all three versions are all the same price.

    If you do hear a difference between DACs then I find (Digital Source > D/A > A/D > Digital Processing > D/A) to be a bizarre chain since it's not especially likely that one device's A/D and D/A is transparent if pretty much all other DACs sound subtly different.
     
  4. MyPetSasquatch

    MyPetSasquatch Friend

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    Oh duh. I should have known that.

    I don't want to shit up Torq's thread too much, so here are my final thoughts before moving on from the topic of Dirac:

    If you think that most DACs sound the same, then you're probably in the wrong thread to begin with. ;) In my experience, the differences between delta-sigma DACs can be vanishingly low, but the differences between a pro reference d-s DAC like the Benchmark DAC3 versus something for audiophile boutique consumers like the Pavane or DirectStream are less than subtle. The DAC3 is technically "transparent" and "accurate" while the Pavane and DS add something to the sound that I find appealing and much prefer to listen to.

    Similarly, the conversion process in the DDRC-22A seems transparent in that it doesn't add or subtract anything to the sound (outside of the DSP filter if it is "on"), but I'm not making that claim about the Pavane or DirectStream. With that said, I've heard other miniDSP devices used as a DAC and it didn't appeal to me. They sounded flat and clinical much in the way that the DAC3 did. I'm fine with the miniDSP's A/D - D/A conversion process when used as a filter, but I haven't heard a miniDSP device used as a standalone digital source that I enjoyed. Call me crazy.

    The other DDRC options simply weren't an option as I have a turntable and wanted the benefits of room correction there as well, so I needed something that could sit in the chain after my preamp. And yes, it still does sound like vinyl. If I only had digital sources, the digital models would certainly be better options for that specific use case.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2018
  5. winders

    winders boomer

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    I disagree. I think the DirectStream, at least with Red Cloud, is a DAC that reveals the music for what it is.
     
  6. MyPetSasquatch

    MyPetSasquatch Friend

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    I agree with you. It sounds more realistic, natural and enjoyable to my ears. All I'm saying is it's probably not something a producer would use in the studio versus something like a Benchmark DAC.
     
  7. maverickronin

    maverickronin Friend

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    It's a small forum so there's time to keep up with everything on the new posts feed.

    That makes sense. A bit suboptimal, but either that or buy 2 different DDRC models and end up with a complicated source switching procedure.
     
  8. MyPetSasquatch

    MyPetSasquatch Friend

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    Totally, I get it. And I respect your opinion about DACs even if I seem like a wild-eyed subjectivist.


    Yeah unfortunately this was the simplest solution (although certainly inelegant, as you put it) and seems to be the exact use case that they designed the 22A for. Yes, it's weird having 2 DA conversions in the chain which I really hated the idea of, but for some reason it works quite well and sounds great, at least to my ears.
     
  9. maverickronin

    maverickronin Friend

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    Not "wild-eyed" at all. At least, as compared to other audiophile forums. People here make fun of the really crazy shit.

    I'm usually content to live and let live. I enjoy seriously discussing the topic, but there's not much use in simple shit-stirring. It's harder to talk someone out of their audio opinions than it is to talk them out of their religion.

    Not many people on the more objectivley oriented forums care about discussing headphones or modding so I end up here.

    I was trying to think of possible use cases but a parallel digital/vinyl chain completely slipped my mind since I'm all digital.
     
  10. File1man

    File1man New

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    I struggle w choosing the $500 Gungnir Multibit UPGRADE TO MY GUNGNIR, A USED PS AUDIO DAC jr for $1700, or use all my savings for the next 6 months, trying a don sachs $3300 preamp or amp for my first intro to tubes sound. So much to read &learn from you, Tora, &others. Retired now &, unfortunately , never met another person with even a passing intetest in music. Get great hapiness & calm from my listening sessions, but alas, always alone. Your opinions & experiences are very appreciated.
     
  11. Telstar

    Telstar Bottom 1% of posters on SBAF

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    2x4, not sure of exact model.

    Do you know LDR-based attenuators? Well, people say that they are transparent, but they have up to 10% distortion figures. Minidsp is nowhere as bad, but it' doesn't measure good. And it's built-in DACs are cheap delta-sigma ones, which I can't say to like even if they measured perfectly.

    I cannot explain WHY DRC reduces differences between DACs but it does.
     
  12. Telstar

    Telstar Bottom 1% of posters on SBAF

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    In this I whole-earthly agree. Which one is correct, i believe R2R are.
     
  13. File1man

    File1man New

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    I find it helpful that some, like Winder has lived with yiggy v1, moved to the ps audio dac, & waits to hear about experiences with yiggy v2. We get better music as technology moves forward. Some very good dacs, renderers, pre's,and Amps are out there . Now I must fund my budget, find time to read & investigate equipment. So far, I like R2R. But I did & do underestimate the funds required to trust my ears and ultimately enjoy the music.
     
  14. Maxx134

    Maxx134 Dunning–Kruger effect poster boy

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    Save the money on tube preamp.
    Most headphone amps have line out so can be used as preamp.

    The used PS Audio dac JR supposed to have same level DSD resolve.
    So should be higher than Gungnir Multibit without any wait time for thermal stability.

    Bottom line, research and go with your gut..


    Also, for those that will be upgrading their Yggdrasil with the new Analoge boards:

    1- don't bother with Gen5 unless you use or plan to use USB mostly.

    It is now very close, but still not "better" than other inputs.
    I compared already.
    It arguably matches my spdiff coax input now..

    2- Upon my replacement (PSU) motherboard, the Gen5 performed noticably better (more clear, less syrupy upper spectrum) than before.


    3- Ask about a motherboard upgrade "IF" you are getting the unit shipped far or overseas....

    The old (early units) motherboards may not sustain such shipping handling.

    It is my own personal belief that the heat accumulation over time affects the motherboard.

    My unit was first day units so had full time to age.
    My room always was very warm as well, so Yggdrasil cooked.
    I believe this accelerated the aging process..

    Also,
    From a designer perspective, having the transformers resting on boards doesn't inspire confidence for longevity...

    Edit :
    I may sound like I am a downer lol,
    But I still regard Yggdrasil as best value end game Dac.
    Just wanna give my experience to the collective thread.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2018
  15. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

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    A used PS Jr for $1,700?! That's a crazy good deal.
     
  16. MyPetSasquatch

    MyPetSasquatch Friend

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    Just as a quick update: I ended up selling the Metrum Pavane and keeping the PS Audio DirectStream.

    I'm really happy with the DirectStream, and the potential for future firmware updates/improvements from PS Audio for free has so much potential. In current state, the DS is stunningly good on the latest "Redcloud" firmware. I'd like perhaps a touch more tonal richness that the Metrum had in spades, but the DirectStream is as close as it comes to a "perfect" DAC for my personal tastes and I'm quite satisfied with it. You know you've found something special when every time you sit down to listen to your system you're surprised at damn good it sounds even after a few months without any component changes. My turntable is getting a little lonely.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
  17. Merc

    Merc New

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    Torq I know you don’t care to read accolades for your work however I’m going to thank you for your time , honesty and hard work anyway , so there ,
    Reading this entire thread over the past couple days has completely changed my view on dacs in general.
    I bought the PS Audio Direct stream dac senior and its partner the Direct stream player last year however as much as I enjoyed them screen quirks and all I ended up selling them and taking a big hit even though they were purchased new and only a few months old . I did have in my system another brand dac fed by the PS audio player , that dac was a r2r nos that was almost 2 grand less then the PS Audio dac and to my ears the other dac out performed the PS Audio senior which had latest firmware. I didn’t buy it due to no representation here in North America.
    Currently Im looking for a new dac though my search has dramatically narrowed , so one last thank you Torq.
     
  18. Jerry

    Jerry Friend

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    I also learnt most about dacs from Marv's "Thoughts on a bunch of dacs", Torq's "Life after Yggdrasil" and Hands' "NOS dacs list". Prior to that, I was in no man's land, just hearing people around me raving about chord mojo and hugo.
     
  19. Walderstorn

    Walderstorn Friend

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    Are you referring to what happens in certain forums where the "next new thing" is automatically 5 stars material or, aka, "the best thing eva"?! Yeap i know how you feel. What is worse is that sometimes it's actually solid, but overhyped, and overpriced, gear.
     
  20. Jerry

    Jerry Friend

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    Exactly. There are some solid products actually, but overpriced and overhyped.

    Mojo, for example, is actually decent for a portable rig, but people are saying it is the best thing since sliced bread. And people are recommending it for desktop users. Beats Yggdrasil and other TOTL dacs. Goodness.
     

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