Magni 3+ and Magni 3 Heresy released

Discussion in 'Headphone Amplifiers and Combo (DAC/Amp) Units' started by redrich2000, Nov 29, 2019.

  1. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    I don't have a problem with people believing this.

    I do have a problem when people spread misinformation. Misinformation on theoretical thresholds needed for gear to sound transparent. Misinformation via incorrectly performed linearity measurements. Misinformation on not bothering to go back to correct or remove bad measurements. Misinformation via self-invented standards for deviation from linearity. Misinformation via simplistic presentation of complex measurements. Misinformation via measurements were voltage levels were not standardized and varied over various tests. Misinformation via moving goalposts of what constitutes good or bad.
     
  2. mkozlows

    mkozlows Friend

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    I understand why people are skeptical of claims from listeners -- it's because most people's listening reports are sighted, and it is extremely well-established that sighted listening reports are hot garbage when differences are subtle or non-existent. (The counterpoint to "quit focusing so much on stupid pointless measurements, objectivists" is "quit focusing so much on stupid pointless sighted listening, subjectivists." Blind tests are where it's at, and it's annoying they're such a pita to do; tons of respect for the people who do them.)

    But what I don't understand is why objectivists treat the possibility of audible differences between amps and DACs as if it's a James Randi level claim. Like, yes, there are some well-known instances -- Tom's Hardware! this one audio group in Boston or something! Tyll's Big Sound tests! -- where people couldn't reliably identify differences in blind tests. But that's just loose empirical anecdote, there's no theoretical framework that says it ought to be totally impossible, and there are people who say that they do get results in blind tests; and yet the rejoinder every time is "well, that's impossible, so they must have screwed something up."
     
  3. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

    Pyrate Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
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    @atomicbob & @purr1n did you see ASR and Ilkless hate on ATC and Dynaudio for not making “evidence based designs?” Yet Dynaudio had one of the most expensive and high tech measurement rooms in Europe built for them by new owners Goertek, has the fancy detail-killing DSP crossovers now in the Core line that ASR fetishizes, and their best speakers (I’ve never heard the Cores so the M and BM lines with the BM still selling 20 years after their debut) were designed by acoustician Andy Munro. ATC is ATC.

    @treboR is totally right. Their “scientific” preference is just for gear they can afford with modern gimmicks and heavy advertising. They hate on stuff they can’t afford (the great Dyns start at 2k a pair and the great ATCs are north of 10k) that is meant to be used in rooms they can’t afford. They’d rather worry about what cheap ass Chinese DAC they claim is better than RME for clarity because Amir says it is that they’re feeding into DSP speakers with codec chips rather than have great speakers placed well in great rooms.
     
  4. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    1. Will I lose IQ by reading?
    2. Did Dynaudio refuse to do business with Amir's digtal / audio installation firm or what?
     
  5. allegro

    allegro Friend

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    Amir has a problem. The only things he can complain about on Magni Heresy are that the volume knob is too small and there is a trace of residual solder on the back of the PCB. He needs help;)
     
  6. Grattle

    Grattle Friend

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    Wouldn't the downstream THD be added to the upstream THD, thus making the upstream THD remain important? I don't know that they don't multiply instead of add. The point is, whatever distortion is baked into the recording is there forever. A good amp will just not distort it further.
     
  7. Grattle

    Grattle Friend

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    Yes, he gripes about the knob being too close to the jack. <facepalm/>
     
  8. starence

    starence Facebook Friend

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    That's something I really disliked about the Magni 3, volume knob was too small and slippery, and too close to the headphone out. I'm not a Schiit hater by any means, I guess these things just matter more to some people than others.
     
  9. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    I agree and love how this is put. Personality/movements such as Amir's "objectivism" (which is really subjectivism based on how tied up into his personality/business) seem to me to be "little crazy" compared to the overall big crazy of audiophilia.
     
  10. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    I once measured the HD600 with a good oversampling DAC in my chain. I then measured with a non-oversampling DAC that measured poorly (noticeably higher distortion).

    Somehow, the HD600 had lower distortion in the midrange when the non-oversampling DAC was in the chain. I repeated this a few times to verify consistency.

    Why? I don't know. I never really had time to explore that further.
     
  11. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    @schiit Based on the tear down pics, is the OPA1678 used for the DC servo in the Magni 3+?
     
  12. schiit

    schiit SchiitHead

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    To be fair, the volume knob thing does bug some people. I don't find it bothersome, but others might.

    With respect to the solder, Tyler pointed me at that, and it's a fairly decent sized splat...but it is not typical. We'll bring it up with the PCB assembly house and get that tightened up. But hey, maybe it does prove we just pulled one off the line, rather than cherry-picking.

    However, the uncleaned board is typical, and intentional: we were finding that board cleaning was affecting the "sealed" Alps pots (and, to a lesser extent, jacks and some thru-hole resistors on products that use them), so we stopped cleaning boards a long time ago. One of our ISO 9001 PCB assembly houses also still uses no-clean solder to manually assemble some of the jacks, so you'll see residue from that as well on some boards.

    Also, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and the reality is our fail rate is very low, and exactly zero field fails have ever been attributed to bad solder. With over 500k products in the field, the entirety of our fails are handled by a single technician, including in-house fails found during instrumented testing, listen testing (everything is listened to, to catch things like scratchy pots and funky switches), and on the burn-in-rack, as well as customer repairs.

    We're proud of what we make, we cover people with long warranties, we take care of them, and we have been doing this nearly 10 years now...but yeah, we'll keep listening, and keep getting better.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2019
  13. schiit

    schiit SchiitHead

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    Yep, DC servo.

    Also the "driver" is actually the VAS. And there are a couple of paired matched transistors not called out in each channel (the SOT26 parts), in addition to the paired matched transistors in the driver/output stage.
     
  14. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    OK, that's what I assumed. Couple guys on the other side of the internet pond were quick to say, "Not actually discrete!" Not sure they understood what it was doing. Regardless, I think it being in this position would still count as a discrete amplifier.

    Any particular reason why you use the OPA1678, or is it just because the specs are good and it's cheap? Just trying to learn more about circuits and all that myself, so was curious if there was something unique to the OPA1678 that made it good for this position.
     
  15. schiit

    schiit SchiitHead

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    The OPA1678 is inexpensive, has high input impedance, and low noise, so it's good for a servo. It's not the only choice, but it's one of the better ones. It's also dual, in case you need another channel. We're only using a single-channel in Magni, though it's a dual-pole servo.
     
  16. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    When the producers, executives, band, etc. walk into the mastering studio to approve their work, do you think their music gets directly transmitted to their brains, or might their music actually be played through amps with some level of distortion, that is levels of distortion that Amir would "not recommend."

    How do we know that an overly clean sound is not what the stakeholders intended because they approved the master on something that could have sounded slightly different? That is you are chasing after "what the artist intended", which we already discussed was kind of bullshit anyway, since music playback is ultimately re-interpretive.

    I'll take a look at headphone distortion measurements using various amps...
     
  17. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    1. Certainly. For ASR, getting speakers, electromechanical devices, electromechanically right in the first place in is old-fashioned. Getting it wrong and fixing it with DSP is high tech. 95% of ASR members not financial dependents are probably tech bros all about the sharing economy.
    2. Dynaudio infamously doesn’t even play ball with repairing their own long term professional customers’ with broken, out of warranty (1 year!) 3000 dollar monitors. Amir and Ilkless would make them run.
     
  18. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    Chifi, Behringer, and Presonus definitely cheat.

    If only objectivists knew how distorted their music really was. Everything that sounds better run hot is run hot. Neve and API house sounds are distorted as f**k. Why does the bass line sound so solid despite the track rolling off? It’s distorted. Distortion translate better in the real world than actual sub 60hz ish transients. Old school bass cabs barely have any real low e fundamental just harmonics. The fundamental might not even be audible at all. Why does the vocal pop out of the shitty hyperlimited modern pop mix? Harmonic exciters.

    Bass woofers have distortion. Unless the music was tracked, mixed, and mastered on big ATCs with the special low distortion woofers, it was always perceived through distortion, even in the studio. Questeds are kinda halfway between ATC and the more distorted everything else. Most studios can’t afford those so everything was approved distorted. If off passive speakers? Half the time they’re Bryston, pa amps, or some old warm, modded stuff would hate that synergizes well with speakers like the NS10, Proac 100, or Quested H108 (a British NS10). Amir would hate all of it. He would hate the nasty class d pa stuff that la studios mix the sterile, painfully overly dynamic, buried dialogue movie soundtracks that his members are buying all this crap to watch at home. Most of them don’t really listen to music beyond the Eagles and anime soundtracks.
     
  19. bboris77

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    Or maybe you cherry-picked that one and then deliberately put that solder splat on there to prove it was "just a random unit off the line" ;) I guess my Magni 3+ was cherry-picked too because it sounds great.

    On a serious note, I am glad you tightened the issues with the volume pot whooshing sound on all the new Magnis.

    I do wish though that it was possible to order spare black tops for my Modi 3 and Magni 3+. That is how much I love the textured black finish on the Heresy. Of course, you would have to be "an experienced electronics technician or engineer who is familiar with ESD precautions" to select this option even though it is just a matter of pulling off the volume knob and unscrewing 4 screws. Think about the tag line: "Customize your little Schiit".
     
  20. elmoe

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    Just swap the boards between the two units and sell the "Heresy in magni 3+ enclosure" as a one of a kind unit on headfi.
     

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