Massdrop RDAC Airist Audio R2-R DAC

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by purr1n, Jun 4, 2018.

  1. CEE TEE

    CEE TEE MOT: NITSCH

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    Sorry to hear about your ZDT Jr. fiasco. I'll request the page be corrected further.

    Please do put in a customer service request for the RDAC so we can replace it ASAP. There should not be any noise in either channel.
     
  2. Ice-man

    Ice-man Friend

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    My rDAC has been perfecto since I plugged it in. Not a single hiccup. Even my Modi Multibit needs a restart now and then.
     
  3. StageOne

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    Sorry to hear about the issues with the ZDT, but I'm glad you got one in the end, it's a fantastic amp.

    I've had the RDAC for about 3 weeks now and it's been pretty solid. I've only experience a hiccup once during that time. I kept getting a "skip" during playback but only about once per song. It's the same RPi/Roon > DAC(SPDIF) > Amp I've been using for 10 months and never heard it before. I can't be positive it was the fault of the RDAC but I did have a Gungnir with a SYS so I could easily switch but it never happened with that combo. I rebooted the RPi and RDAC and it hasn't again happened for a week.

    As for (Mass)Drop, they seem to do a good job and when there was an issue (mCTH) they promptly fixed the problem for me.

    Overall, the RDAC and ZDT Jr. is a pretty damn good combo. The RDAC adds a bit of warmth and heft to the ZDT and I could just listen to it for hours... which I do, a lot.
     
  4. klyrish

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    I know I'm a nobody around these boards and my limited experience with hi-fi equipment means I just don't have the background to draw from, but I hope that my thoughts here can help others in my position (Gungnir Multibit owners, heavy music lovers) because I found it hard to get any information about this DAC vs. Gungnir Multibit and/or in regards to how it handles the harder side of music.

    My replacement RDAC arrived on Friday and I quickly hooked it up to the ZDT Jr. and fed it optical to check for static. There was none. It sounded perfect. Even cold, it sounded shockingly good. So I quickly removed my headphones, turned off the amp, and allowed Spotify to stream to the RDAC overnight to warm up/burn in a bit.

    On Saturday evening, I listened critically for the first time and was completely blown away. I legitimately could not believe the sound I was hearing and the first song I listened to (Somewhat Damaged) brought happy tears to my eyes. It was such a rich, lush, full sound with so many details, such incredible separation and placement of layers/instruments, and an overall "organic" feeling that doesn't seem like the right word but is the closest I can get to what I mean. Basically, it felt like I was in the room with the band, listening while they played live rather than examining a recording. This is how music should sound.

    It was love at first listen and I knew right then I was never going back to the Gungnir Multibit or Schiit in general.

    I tested with a wide variety of harder rock/metal, with a HEAVY emphasis on NIN after the first few songs sounded so incredible with the layer separation and detail retrieval. Notable tracks I used for comparison purposes for those who care:

    NIN: Somewhat Damaged
    NIN: We're In This Together
    NIN: Just Like You Imagined
    NIN: Pilgrimage
    NIN: No, You Don't
    NIN: La Mer
    NIN: The Great Below
    NIN: The Way Out Is Through
    NIN: Into the Void
    NIN: Starfuckers, Inc.
    NIN: Underneath It All
    NIN: The Pefect Drug
    NIN: Heresy
    NIN: March of the Pigs
    NIN: Eraser
    NIN: Reptile
    Architects: The Bitter End
    Architects: Alpha Omega
    Architects: Nihilist
    The Ghost Inside: Test the Limits
    Enter Shikari: The Sights
    Enter Shikari: Solidarity
    Enter Shikari: The Appeal & The Mindsweep I
    Enter Shikari: The Appeal & The Mindsweep II (live)

    I also tested primarily with the RDAC into the ZDT Jr. but also connected it to the Ragnarok and compared the Gungnir Multibit through both amps (using balanced cables with the Ragnarok). I tested my unmodified HD6XX, Focal Clear, and LCD-X headphones on all configurations--using balanced cables on all three when using the Ragnarok. I should note I have a 20-band parametric EQ (heavy V which is my preferred signature) applied for the HD6XX in Roon, a simpler 10-band EQ for the Clear (modest, slight taming of upper-mids and a few high frequencies), and the built in Audeze settings applied for the LCD-X (not exactly sure as it doesn't given any insight but there is a slight but noticeable difference between on and off and I prefer on).

    First and foremost, I'm a true believer in the HD6XX now. I've heard over and over they scale so well with a better amp, etc., but just didn't believe it. I was always underwhelmed with them on the Gungnir Multibit/Raggy combo. When I wanted to be analytical, I went Clear. When I wanted to enjoy more, I went LCD-X. This held true whether I was using the Raggy or the ZDT Jr. once it arrived. I got the HD6XX out of their box for the first time in months after getting the ZDT Jr. and found them much more enjoyable with the Gungnir Multibit -> ZDT Jr. chain than through the Raggy, but still wasn't enjoying them as much as the other two.

    With the RDAC -> ZDT Jr., the Clear and LCD-X both sounded flat and just...off. The Clear were especially congested with a flat stage and recessed vocals. The LCD-X are too dark and I find little enjoyment with them in this chain; they sound okay with some live stuff but on the whole, I'm not engaged. The HD6XX suddenly came to life in a way I still can't believe. They sound INCREDIBLE. The stage is much wider and sound so clear, so un-congested, so detailed, so 3D, and so utterly engaging I can barely take these off.

    The RDAC has shown just how bright, analytical, and congested the Gungnir Multibit really is to my ears. Truly. I'm not saying this to stir shit or just be a contrarian, it's the honest truth. RDAC -> ZDT Jr. -> HD6XX is the absolute best music has ever sounded to me.

    (All comments below are in regards to the HD6XX)

    Gone is the grating, unrealistic harshness of cymbals and weird aliasing I've often heard on synths (especially saw wave patches, i.e. March of the Pigs' driving bass synth riff which feels more metallic and harsh through the Gungnir Multibit). Music sounds so REAL. Drums have this weight to them I've only ever heard/felt at concerts or from my own playing when I still had a set. Cymbals crash and shimmer but it's not the ear-piercing sharpness I'd grown used to (and that I'm almost positive has been causing my headaches the last few weeks after extended listening periods). I prefer this slightly rolled off treble but could use just a touch more. Vocals sound so authentic and lifelike--even when screamed. I've heard foot pedals being engaged in numerous piano-focused pieces and confirmed that I could not hear them or had to strain really hard to hear them when the Gungnir Multibit was acting as DAC (case in point: NIN 1 Ghosts I. I've never heard/noticed the piano pedals before the RDAC).

    The most incredible thing, though, was the separation and placement of layers. My reference track is NIN: Somewhat Damaged for numerous reasons, but one of the biggest being how it starts with a simple four chord progression on a slightly-out-of-tune acoustic guitar that slowly piles more and more layers on as the song changes from quiet, introspective disdain to full on guttural rage and desperation. Two of the layers that highlight the differences between RDAC and Gungnir Multibit the best for me are the one that sounds like a violin bow rubbing on some dry surface which starts at 0:29. At 0:49 when the primary, sinister bass synth starts, and 1:00 when vocals and yet another layer of guitars come in, I can STILL pick that violin bow sound out at even the loudest parts of the song when all layers are present in the mix. And that bass line has this addition wetness to it that makes it sound so thick and heavy while still being metallic.

    After the guitars get distorted at 1:48, the violin bow is replaced with what I'm guessing are hi-hat samples using a similar percussive pattern as the violin bow, vocals turn to screams before the chorus (where another layer of guitars and a bass guitar come in on top of everything else) explodes. On the Gungnir Multibit, the hi-hats just sound like a basic, low-mixed 4/4 beat that gets lost in the chaos. On the RDAC, I can still pick out the pattern they're programmed to despite the mounting volume and intensity of everything else.

    These layers all sound like they're stacked out to both sides of my head. It's the craziest thing I've ever heard and have never heard it before this DAC. All of them totally audible separately yet perfectly mixed together into the whole song. At no point can I NOT pick out any one of the layers with the RDAC; I just need to focus on which one I want to hear and I can find it in the mix with little effort. With the Gungnir Multibit, once things get a little louder, the softer background layers disappear into a wall of congestion. I never paid much mind because I just figured there was too much going on as the layers continue to increase in number and volume but the RDAC showed how possible it is to present the song in its entirety while still perfectly separating each layer--no matter how quiet or back in the mix it might be.

    In Just Like You Imagined, I can hear a metronome ticking at the very end as the final synth crackles fade out. I've never heard that before. Not to mention the fact this song is a sonic journey with incredible dynamics and positioning throughout--I got a strong 3D sensation from numerous parts. New layers starting or others going away sound like they're fading up from or down into this blackness that I've never heard before either.

    In Into the Void, before the bridge this this soft, high-pitched bell-like synth going back and forth between the L/R channels except RDAC -> ZDT Jr. -> HD6XX sounds 3D, like they're popping all around above, below, in front of, and behind my head. In the Gungnir Multibit, they're just panning from L to R rather than encircling my head.

    I feel truly immersed in the audio with the RDAC. The softer edge and darker tone along with some tube magic on the HD6XX makes everything I play sound like I'm right in the room with the band. The tracks from The Downward Spiral were reproduced so well, I almost felt like I was listening to the 2004 10th anniversary re-release on DVD-A in 5.1 surround sound. It's absolutely amazing. Music feels live and organic rather than sterile and processed. I feel more like I'm at a show than in my office wearing headphones.

    I don't know it's possible, but I honestly hear as much detail with the RDAC as I did with the Gungnir Multibit--possibly more due to the lack of congestion and layers staying separate and audible. The RDAC seems to be better about pulling background sounds forward, making them more prominent in the mix with their own space and proper placement, while never overshadowing anything. Or maybe that's what others have meant by "laid back" in their description of the sound. All I know is that I'm hearing things I've never heard before, I'm hearing more things at the same time as others, and there's a better sense of a immersion with the RDAC.

    Live music--official releases and bootleg audience recordings--sounds so authentic and engaging that it takes no effort at all to imagine I'm in the crowd.

    The Clear feel cold and sterile with a lot of congestion and poor separation of layers. Honestly, they make the RDAC sound more like the Gungnir Multibit with vocals recessed and the higher end of the spectrum more pronounced (though there is better extension in the bass than the HD6XX). They also start their "by design" popping even with the volume pretty low. It's extremely annoying and I'm completely over these headphones now.

    The LCD-X are a bit better than the Clear but still feel colder and less engaging than the HD6XX and like I'm still outside of the performance--more like I'm in the studio hearing the mix over the monitors rather than being in the room with the band. Bass is shockingly disappointing on these and the same congestion that plagues the Clear is evident here. The HD6XX have much richer and harder-hitting bass, though that's likely due to the EQ settings.

    I also got a Metrum Amethyst off of Reddit which arrived yesterday. I powered it up and fed it optical audio overnight and have been listening all day today. I love the sound and am definitely 100% in the NOS camp. I feel like the Amethyst is a bit more clear and separated than the RDAC with a touch more treble as well, but it's lacking a bit in the bass.

    I listened to Nirvana - "Milk It" and Nirvana - "tourette's"--two longtime favorites--and "Milk It" especially has this heavy, menacing bass riff that I wanted to hear through this new stack. It sounds wonderful on the Amethyst, but switching back to the RDAC, I feel like it's got all the benefits of the Amethyst with harder-hitting bass and that extra something special about it that just sucks me in and makes me FEEL the music as much as I'm hearing it. It almost sounds like the bass has some slight overdrive through the RDAC; there's additional grit and weight to it not heard on the Amethyst (or Gungnir Multibit for that matter). There's a noticeable increase in slam with the RDAC and possibly even more low-level detail (or maybe my mind/hearing is just playing tricks on me) compared to the Amethyst. I don't know if it's because the RDAC is just this f'ing awesome in every way or the Amethyst still needs to warm up a bit more, but I am totally sold on the RDAC.

    One thing the Amethyst did better than the RDAC was giving a sense of true(r) analog sound; in particular, the aforementioned saw wave bass line from NIN March of the Pigs actually sounded like it was coming from a synthesizer plugged into an amp and recorded via microphone (which it was) rather than an entirely digital "analog" synth like the majority of synths today are. The RDAC is close but there's a little something extra (warmth?) in the Amethyst that sounds incredible. I'm very intrigued by the Onyx now as well, given how great the Amethyst sounds, but am concerned that I'm going to drop $2600 on a DAC that I ultimately like less than the $350 RDAC.

    I also want to get a high-end tube amp (EC, DNA, or Ampsandsound) but I'm afraid I'll drop $2000+ only to lose this magic the RDAC -> ZDT Jr. -> HD6XX has. I definitely like the warmer side of things and am willing to sacrifice some detail (and treble-induced headaches) if it means music is this enjoyable to listen to. I guess in the meantime, I'll just have to enjoy how amazing everything sounds with this RDAC -> ZDT Jr. -> HD6XX stack. :)
     
  5. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    Well, after a write up like this I will have to revisit the Airist, which has mostly just been sitting here on top of my Gungnir MB since not long after it arrived. I thought that it had a bit of a "wet" and "sweet" character compared to the Gungnir, and a bit less of everything (detail, seperation, etc.). I also thought the timbre was slightly off, especially with voices. All this was nothing other than the small differences you get with otherwise competent DACs.

    Most of my evaluation was with the Clear however so I will see what the HD6XX brings...
     
  6. elmoe

    elmoe Friend

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    I used the HD6XX with the Airist and my conclusions matched yours pretty well.
     
  7. Tchoupitoulas

    Tchoupitoulas Friend

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    It’s good to see some recent impressions of the RDAC. Since its arrival the Airist seemed to be met with relative silence - not much hype, not a lot of grumbling. I’d wondered if this was simply a sign that the RDAC was living up to expectations after the positive initial reviews.

    For what little it’s worth - I’m a greenhorn - I’ve had a good experience with the RDAC, albeit coming from a humble Fulla 2. My stock HD 6XX scaled well with the RDAC and a ZDT Jr., much as you’d expect. More surprising, though, was quite how nicely the RDAC and HD 6XX went together with my MCTH (again, just as some of the early reviews suggested). Besides being a bit punchier and having tighter bass response, the HD 6XX also gained a good deal in layering and instrument separation. But the most immediate benefit came with the livelier, more dynamic sound of drums.
     
  8. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    Ok, just spent some time with familiar tracks on a Airist vs. Gungnir MB > EC BW2 > Clear or HD6XX (unmodded) chain.

    Using the Clears, the first thing that jumps out is that the Airist has a bass emphasis compared to the Gungnir MB. The <100hz bass is both emphasized (obviously) and a bit more loose/less defined (this is takes more concentration to hear). With the HD6XX this difference is harder to hear, which seems understandable given the FR of the HD6XX.

    Beyond that...It's hard for me to tell. I *think* I hear a touch less detail with the Airist...but today the slight difference in voice timbre I recall hearing seemed missing in action, though I think I still hear a small loss of "inner detail" with voices...all very slight.

    This probably disqualifies me from having a significant opinion around DACs from here on out! :p:rolleyes:

    edit: I forgot to include a Saga in passive mode between the DACs and the amp...perhaps it is squashing all the differences between them...LOL
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2019
  9. Ksaurav402

    Ksaurav402 Friend

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    I think your assessment of vocals in earlier post was spot on. I listen to lot of music with emphasis on vocals and if you do quick swap between this DAC and Gungnir, you will find Gungnir has dense tonality in vocals and feels more natural although still not as dense as NOS DAC but dense compared to Airist. That's the first thing that stand out. However since Airist has 2.5v out so quick A/B ing was little difficult due to volume mismatch.
     
  10. klyrish

    klyrish Facebook Friend

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    You know, I was just thinking a little while ago: maybe it was just new toy infatuation and I posted my impressions above too quickly before the new toy sheen wore off but as I was listening to a soundboard NIN recording just now, I noticed new things happening in three songs and I've listened to this show close to a hundred times over the years.

    I switched over to the Gungnir Multibit and in all three cases, even being fully focused on the tracks and actively trying to hear these things, I can't. In one case, it's this reverb-like effect on one of the guitars that sounds like it's behind and underneath the rest of the instruments panning from left to right.

    I keep thinking that there's no way this $350 DAC is exposing things Gungnir Multibit seems to have no idea about and that it's all in my head, but it is. I didn't get this DAC with the intention of finding faults with Gungnir Multibit or any Schiit product. I fully expected to be underwhelmed and quickly return to the Gungnir Multibit for it's superior detail but the exact opposite has been true. I was completely surprised during my first real listening session at how perfect it sounded to me. Maybe it's just due to the music I listen to primarily but I really do think it beats the Gungnir Multibit in every single way except maybe bass extension.

    I continue to be blown away by this DAC and stack. Multiple times during this show, I got full-body goosebumps from how good it sounded and had to stop working to just listen and enjoy it.

    And for anyone interested, the parametric EQ settings I use for the HD6XX were taken from this post:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones...zer_apo_settings_for_sennheiser_hd6xx_inside/

    I use profile 0. If you're going to attempt any of these through Roon, be aware that parametric EQs are limited to 20 bands. It'll let you add a 21st but as soon as you do, Roon will crash. And once the 21st is there, any time you try to access that profile to view or edit it, Roon will crash.
     
  11. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    Is your signature accurate in that you're using optical out on the Behringer to the DACs?

    I would try a good SPDIF source before calling it one way or another on the DACs if so.

    (Optical is poo poo.)
     
  12. klyrish

    klyrish Facebook Friend

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    Yes, it's correct. And really? In general or just with these specific DACs? I've considered getting an Eitr but $170 + shipping is a tough pill to swallow for what amounts to a dongle. But if it's really worth it...
     
  13. Ksaurav402

    Ksaurav402 Friend

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    Why not get PI2AES. With the Audio HAT and Pi motherboard, you will get a streamer for under $250 and you will get all output you need. AES, BNC, RCA COAX, OPTICAL, I2S and your laptop and phone will be free of wires.
     
  14. klyrish

    klyrish Facebook Friend

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    That's really cool looking but would I have to build it? And what exactly would this do? Would I use this as the Roon core and attach my external SSD to this?
     
  15. Ksaurav402

    Ksaurav402 Friend

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    It's really simple and you can do it in 30mins once you have all.
    Order Pi2AES board along with power supply and housing from http://www.pi2design.com/
    Check out below link. GoTo 2nd post in this specific page. It has all the items that you need to purchase and steps
    https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/raspberry-pi-i2s-to-spdif-hat.1990/page-101

    Also with RopieeeXL you can use HAT as Roon End point or for Airplay etc
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2019
  16. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    Yes, get a Pi2AES or DigiOne Signature. I haven’t heard the former myself yet, so can’t say which is better. They should both be very good. Almost every good DAC will see benefit. You may be noticeably holding back the Schiit stuff. Even the Modi MB is source sensitive.

    A good SPDIF/AES source should trump almost everything else, with some rare exceptions (ie poor SPDIF implementation in a DAC or some very rare, but very good USB solutions). Optical is generally considered a poor standard. Generally it’s claimed to have a lot of jitter even if the standard JTest stuff doesn’t necessarily show it. So, I’m not sure if that claim is true, but generally have found optical to never sound great.

    Edit: These streamers are pretty easy to setup, if you know how to flash an ISO onto a MicroSD card. You can pretty easily install Roon Bridge on them. Music can be locally attached or on network storage.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2019
  17. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    It's still apples to apples and therefore valid. $5 that @klyrish prefers Bifrost 2 to either Gungnir MB (from description, it sounds like A2) or RDAC.
     
  18. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    @purr1n I would say yes and no. The Schiit MB stuff seems very source dependent to me. The Airist I think has a lower overall performance ceiling. It might be more source agnostic or whatever too. Half baked optical I could see hindering the Gungnir more, relatively.

    That he mentions details being totally missing on the Gungnir is suggestive to me.

    I have the Airist and would never say the Modi Multibit can’t pull out the same details.
     
  19. Poleepkwa

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    Yes, you will have to build it. To be honest, building might be a bit too strong wording: you attach the HAT to the Raspberry and Raspberry into case. The case is usually the most challenging part.
    It can be used as Roonendpoint, not Roon Core. I suggest like @Ksaurav402 suggested to use the Ropieee.
    Of all the OS I have tested that is the most "appliance" like.
     
  20. klyrish

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    I'm not saying that Gungnir Multibit or Modi Multibit aren't or can't pull those details out, just that I can't hear the same things when using Gungnir Multibit vs. the RDAC. The presentation is quite different and I can only assume that's why certain things are more prominent on one vs. the other. Some of the stuff I've been hearing on the RDAC I can sort of pick out if I really strain to hear it via the Gungnir Multibit, but other stuff is just lost in the noise. Most importantly, though, I really find the OS sound to be harsh and processed now after hearing the RDAC and Amethyst. It's extremely off-putting to me. Even if I could hear all of the detail and separation I'm getting with the RDAC on the Gungnir Multibit, I'd still take the RDAC over the Gungnir Multibit because the RDAC doesn't give me headaches. I really wish I could easily let you guys hear what I'm hearing because I know what I'm saying sounds crazy, but it's true.

    I also got an Eitr on Reddit for $135 shipped so for the time being, I'll keep the current setup I have. This MacBook Pro does nothing except act as a Roon core and Spotify source that I can control via phone/my primary Ubuntu laptop for listening. I am intrigued by this Raspberry Pi streamer, though.
     

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