MD x Airist x Sosolar: RDAC design mysteries

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by bimmer100, Jun 5, 2018.

  1. frenchbat

    frenchbat BritishBat's arch enemy - Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2015
    Likes Received:
    1,195
    Dislikes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Let's not confuse things and put illegal download for personal use, at the same level as (alleged) product copy and profiteering.

    That's like putting shooting someone for self defense at the same level as school shootings. I don't think that would bring anything really useful to the debate.
     
    Walderstorn, Cspirou, Lyer25 and 5 others like this.
  2. Ice-man

    Ice-man Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2015
    Likes Received:
    2,708
    Dislikes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I don't have a horse in this race. I was interested in the MD DAC. Consider the undeniably high praise that this product received from the leading members here including @purr1n @Torq and @Hands. And then the shit storm happened. So given the potential for the drop not to even happen, I decided not to join the drop. BUT...

    I don't feel that this thread or this forum is the right place to air your grievances, at least not in the way that you've done it...for several reason. This could very well be a legal matter and probably already is. You really don't benefit from sharing private correspondences between yourself and anyone from MD. I would encourage you to maintain some discretion and privacy about those communications if for nothing else...your own benefit.

    Personally I find that fact that this is playing out publicly on SBAF somewhat annoying if not inappropriate. While it may be entertaining for some here, what is your purpose. Are you wanting to build public support here for your case? Legally, it doesn't quite work like that. Are you hoping that Marv will pick up the phone and call MD and tell them to do the right thing? I think that there are better ways to go about it.

    In the end, if this proves to be a legal matter, then it will be handled that way and hopefully the wrong will be righted. All I'm personally interested in is the outcome. But this is playing out like any other reality TV show that is shown ad-naseum in this country today.

    Anyway, I've weighed in with my 2c. Maybe I just haven't had enough coffee yet.

    ps...let me add that I've been the sole owner of a business for the past 15 years. I've been sued before. The first thing that any lawyer worth his salt will tell you is, don't talk about the case to anyone, period. Certainly, not to the other party involved and certainly not on public forums on the internet. Anything you say can be used as evidence against you.

    What if you mis-speak? Or you say something that could quite come out differently than you meant given that English may not be your native language. Too bad, it can still be used against you. So again, I would encourage you to exercise some discretion for your own case if you do in fact have a case.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2018
  3. Senorx12562

    Senorx12562 Case of the mondays

    Friend
    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2015
    Likes Received:
    1,590
    Dislikes Received:
    46
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Limbo
    I am pretty sure no one here knows enough about the relevant facts, nor do they have sufficient expertise (ip lawyer cleanup on aisle 3) to make any judgment about who is right under the law. In fact, I don't think anyone has enough facts to assign blame in this situation either, notwithstanding the rush to judgment undertaken by some. I know I don't.

    I don't see any ethical problem with buying this product from massdrop based on what I know now, and certainly no legal one.

    Edit: I forgot, while I wouldn't say I find this whole rigamaroll entertaining, I do find it interesting, and am curious about how it will come out. My guess is that it will end up being a tempest in a teapot.
     
  4. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    5,278
    Dislikes Received:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    India
    At the human level, I would like to see the parties sort this out before it even approaches legal machinery. As far as legal is concerned, though, I'm sure that ice-man is giving good advice there.
    Same here. I'm not in the market for this DAC now. Not saying never, but, if the day comes, it would more likely be in the used-gear market among friends on this continent --- and that would be quite some time in the future. It has to get to at least one of them first!
     
    Jinxy245 likes this.
  5. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

    Friend
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2016
    Likes Received:
    2,095
    Dislikes Received:
    25
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Calgary, Alberta
    Home Page:
    Who has a bigger legal team? What was the outcome of a previous legal battle involving MD and mechanical keyboards?

    End of the day, when push comes to shove, the big guy is going to flex his muscle. However, it's the consumer's choice on where to spend their dollars ultimately.
     
    Arun Kumar and Senorx12562 like this.
  6. Bill-P

    Bill-P Level 42 Mad Wizard

    Friend
    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2015
    Likes Received:
    2,888
    Dislikes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    So... at this point, I'm almost inclined to ask that this thread be moved to a place where we discuss how friends (and enemies) are made.

    The discussion has provided nothing on how the Airist R2R DAC is actually designed versus the Hibiki beyond that the layouts are almost a complete match.

    On the other hand, we certainly have a lot of non-design related discussion on business, marketing, price point and other such stuffs. Also recently we brought reputation into the folds, and that's exactly where friends (and enemies) are made.
     
  7. sosolar

    sosolar Hibiki DAC Designer

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2018
    Likes Received:
    78
    Dislikes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    13
    Location:
    China

    Thank you for your kind remind. Will take more care.
     
    Jinxy245 and Kattefjaes like this.
  8. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

    Staff Member Friend BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    45,217
    Dislikes Received:
    70
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Antarctica
    If you are building a legal case, keep silent. The way the legal system works in the USA is that two lawyers battle against each other with either a judge or panel of twelve random people deciding who is the winner. It really is a battle, so keep in mind that anything you say can be used as an advantage by your opponent's lawyer during the battle.

    P.S. Have no doubt that Massdrop, with its resources, will be able to hire a very skilled champion to slay your champion. Like the guy below. This is one of the inherent problems with the US legal system. People with money can hire better lawyers. No system is perfect and each has its advantages and disadvantages.
    game-of-thrones-the-mountain.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2018
  9. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

    Staff Member Friend BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    45,217
    Dislikes Received:
    70
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Antarctica
    Personally I would have liked to see a duel to between @sosolar and William Tse to decide the outcome since it seems to be a matter of honor. Not all duels end up with someone dead or injured. The guns used back in the day were not terrible accurate at those distances, and the people involved took turns instead of firing simultaneous. Usually what happens is that one side decides it's not worth it - gives up, and thereby the other side receives satisfaction or reprieve.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2018
  10. frenchbat

    frenchbat BritishBat's arch enemy - Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2015
    Likes Received:
    1,195
    Dislikes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    93
  11. Dzerh

    Dzerh Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2018
    Likes Received:
    183
    Dislikes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    San Ramon, CA, US
    massdrop can afford to loose a bit of reputation at this point, I think this whole issue affected only sales of this particular product. But not strong enough to cancel it and relaunch with some other company.
    Airist is in much more vulnerable position. But probably they have nothing to loose at this point.
    And, as massdrop is not selling this DAC in millions there is not a ton of money at stake compare to 2-3 years of litigation cost.
    On positive side, as already mentioned, you got free publicity.
     
  12. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

    Friend
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2016
    Likes Received:
    2,095
    Dislikes Received:
    25
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Calgary, Alberta
    Home Page:
    Unless you can figure out how much you're losing/they're making by potentially copying your design and sue them. At the end of the day might not be worth it if we look at the keyboard fiasco, which is legally ongoing after at least a year ($$$) despite MD still making drops of said design.

    Whether it be audio, knives, cookware, whatever... At this point unless it's got someone's established brand on it already and a true group buy of said product, Massdrop as a brand has officially dropped off my radar and will encourage anyone I know on these drops to do the same. As a peon I can only vote with my dollars and certainly will do so.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2018
  13. Will

    Will Massdrop

    Friend
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    207
    Dislikes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    33
    Hey msommers, wanted to respond to this part of your post. Can you provide the source of this information, either by reply or PM? Massdrop is involved in no on-going legal disputes regarding any product, and Massdrop has never engaged in court proceedings with any partner or third party, nor do we want to. Only lawyers win in that situation. I'd love to reach the source of this information to hopefully stop them misleading folks like you in the future.
     
    Thad E Ginathom likes this.
  14. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

    Friend
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2016
    Likes Received:
    2,095
    Dislikes Received:
    25
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Calgary, Alberta
    Home Page:
    Thad E Ginathom likes this.
  15. Will

    Will Massdrop

    Friend
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    207
    Dislikes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    33
  16. bilboda

    bilboda Wow, I made it this far without being a friend?

    Contributor
    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2016
    Likes Received:
    279
    Dislikes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Miama
    Oh, i don't know, sosolar probably has legal recourse in China, if there is such a thing. The board is being made there.
     
  17. willsw

    willsw Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2016
    Likes Received:
    198
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Now that each party involved has made it clear where they stand and what they're willing to say, I'm pretty much done. I don't think we'll be seeing any legal watermelon-heads.

    Ethically, I don't have any problem with Massdrop in this situation, I just think that they decided (wrongly) there was too much risk in taking any kind of responsibility and therefore chose to argue with or ignore their customers. There were several ways they could have diffused things early on but none were taken. I understand their choices but disagree. If you can't let your community call you out sometimes, it's not great for that relationship.

    Airist already endured the blowback of misjudging a market with their amp, so the biggest disappointment was seeing that they also failed to take appropriate responsibility, especially given that they were not risking anything by doing so - in the right way. Now an interesting product is tainted and we'll have to see if that inhibits its further development or if this whole thing just blows over. They're a confusing company but it seems like they could pop out random interesting things in the future.

    I think sosolar has already benefitted from the whole thing and, even if it's difficult to resist reacting against a wrong, would do best to not spend time, money, and stress on this instead of developing his own products.
     
  18. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

    Friend
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2016
    Likes Received:
    2,095
    Dislikes Received:
    25
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Calgary, Alberta
    Home Page:
    The quote that stood out to me was:

    "...in short, the two companies came to loggerheads about legal issues pertaining to certain IP, patents, and licensing agreements. That all came to light in September, and as far as our research can tell us, nothing has really been settled."
     
  19. Senorx12562

    Senorx12562 Case of the mondays

    Friend
    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2015
    Likes Received:
    1,590
    Dislikes Received:
    46
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Limbo
    Sorry, but if you do not know the circumstance surrounding how Airist obtained the design in question, the circumstances surrounding the negotiation between Airist and MD (like who told who what, who knew what and when, and the terms of the contract between them, etc...) then, respectfully, you are just talking out your ass. You and a bunch of others here to be sure, but it is getting tiresome. Cheers.
     
    direstraitsfan98 likes this.
  20. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

    Friend
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2016
    Likes Received:
    2,095
    Dislikes Received:
    25
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Calgary, Alberta
    Home Page:
    .
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2018
    Senorx12562 and JK47 like this.

Share This Page