Merv's Politically Incorrect Audio Blog

Discussion in 'SBAF Blogs' started by purr1n, Dec 26, 2018.

  1. Taverius

    Taverius Smells like sausages

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    Welcome to reactionary populism.

    The whole MO: it's not based on facts but on mass-scale emotional manipulation.

    Not that numbers in those statistics aren't often suspect one way or another, but that just makes it more believeable when they make up their own.
     
  2. LetMeBeFrank

    LetMeBeFrank Won't tell anyone my name is actually Francis

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    Who cares what color or sex the person being killed by police is? The fact is police can't be trusted. The job attracts certain types who love having and using authority over people.

    When peoples lives are on the line, you can't have any "bad apples", period. People talk about budget cuts, but that is the opposite of what they need. They need higher wages to attract people who aren't just in it for the thrill of beating people up. They also need significantly more training. Police are horrible at de-escalation and many of these shootings happen because they are scared, which shouldn't be an issue with proper training.

    Anyway, I don't hate police. I understand their job is hard and I'm grateful that they exist as a deterrent to crime. I just don't trust them.
     
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  3. Stuff Jones

    Stuff Jones Friend

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    The issue is truth. The claim that police are systematically targeting and killing black people has been massively consequential. It's led to, among other things, costly riots, lives lost and institutionalization of woke ideology. The truth of the claim matters and should be examined.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2021
  4. HHS

    HHS Almost "Made"

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    I have a hard time believing police wages or funding is the issue. Small or rural departments may not pay that well, but in most major cities police officers routinely earn over $80k a year, often much more, and benefits are very competitive with private sectors jobs. Similarly police budgets well outstrip many other programs in most cities.

    What goes along with calls to cut police budgets are to increase budgets for programs that fight poverty, mental illness, homelessness and drug addiction so that there is less need for police intervention in situations that they're poorly trained to deal with in the first place. If you can lower crime and police interactions in the first place then you'll need smaller budgets for police departments anyway.

    There is also clearly a need to overhaul police training, make them more accountable for misconduct and increase transparent civilian oversight
     
  5. Stuff Jones

    Stuff Jones Friend

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  6. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Like what Confucius, err my grandmother said: cops are no different than gangsters (triad, tongs), except they wear different clothing. You want to know why Asians have such low rate of violence from cops? We stay as far away from them as possible, including not calling them even when we are the victims.

    Police are necessary. Well, it depends upon the desired function. Giuliani's death squad policing of the late 80s was arguably needed and desired by the populace because violence in NY was so out of control.

    In California, the CHP are mostly there for revenue. Each CHP officer actually generates revenue for the state of California. Many years ago when my family was going on a trip and we got a flat tire, the only place we could pull over was near an on-ramp. Called AAA of course. But also called CHP for assistance because of the dangerous spot we were parked. And this was a spot on 101 where CHP was usually very busy at this time giving tickets. CHP dispatcher kind of said: you guys are SOL - even though we asked specifically for assistance and told them we were parked in a bad spot on the highway. Heck, it was such a bad spot that the tow truck when it came even parked at a angle, in case someone rear-ended it. And then there's the "get out of a ticket club for the CHP" for rich people. I won't even get into that one. Really, f**k the California CHP. Most useless cops ever with respect to actually helping people.

    The LA cops are decent. The only thing I dislike about the department is that the brass are starfuckers and there aren't enough of them who will respond unless Kobe dies on the hill next to your subdivision or there is actually somebody they can arrest.

    Yup. It's training and what the citizens want. In many cities, people want oversight, but they get none. It took Rodney King, and more shit after that, for the LAPD to get its shit together and even now they are still trying.

    As far as the shit that seems to keep going on in Minneapolis, I am not surprised. One of us on CS/SBAF got shot by the cops there and paralyzed, in a wheelchair for the rest of their lives, along with all the mental and physical toil that comes with that. No guns, unarmed, running away. Just stupid dumb kid shit. WTF right?

    I'm not surprised at all that Oscar Grant got shot by a cop who intended to use a taser instead of a gun. Those guys were BART cops, with far inferior training. They couldn't get anyone to be a BART cop back then. I remember all the signs plastered on the trains: Have a career as a BART cop! They were that desperate.

    And as I've mentioned before, I've experienced and seen the same racist shit on that HBO Max show Warrior - not as extreme as on the show - but nevertheless, racist shit.

    It is what it is. A lot of police training involves x1000 ways in which you will be targeted and killed as a cop. Cops getting killed by random people who let their guard down. Cops being assassinated from behind when they are sitting in their squad car. Also policing policies: do you let them run away, deescalate, and get them later, or do you go after them aggressively. I know that many county sheriff departments in California have implemented a do not pull of a "Live and Die in LA" car chase policy because of the danger to innocent people. Sometimes shit can't be helped. That cop who shot the 16 year old girl with a knife in Columbus only had seconds to decide. He saved another girl. Had he reacted later, there could have been two dead girls instead. But really, it's up to the citizens. If LeBron wants a police policy where the cops shall wait until after a deadly act has been completed before a cop can respond with deadly force in his neighborhood, I'm fine with that.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2021
  7. Stuff Jones

    Stuff Jones Friend

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    The elephant in the room with most of these high visibility police killing cases is that the person killed resists arrest. I can't recall a case where someone complied with the police completely and was killed. This is not to excuse the police who do exercise excessive force. But you can minimize your chances of having a bad encounter with police by being compliant instead of combative. This message does not fit the prevailing narrative and is not communicated, despite its life saving potential.
     
  8. Pancakes

    Pancakes Friend

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    I think one of the biggest issues is the protection cops get when they f**k up. If you expect someone to perform a quality job, you need the right incentives (or in this case disincentives).

    I've never held a job where it was understood that if I have a track record of being bad at my job (cops with history of violence and violations) and managed to completely f**k things (killed someone by either incompetence or not giving a f**k), the worst outcome would be a month long paid suspension (vacation).

    I get that it's a stressful job but so is being an ER doctor, an engineer responsible for pedestrian bridges, an air traffic controller, etc.

    I also get that their lives are on the line and that adds another level of complexity. And for that reason exactly, not everyone is fit for the job. The police academies need better vetting. And cops who are not capable of handling the streets should be taken off them.
     
  9. HHS

    HHS Almost "Made"

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    Off the top of my head, Philando Castile.
     
  10. Stuff Jones

    Stuff Jones Friend

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    Did we ever see what was going on inside the car?

    When I learned to drive I also learned that if you get pulled over put both hands on the steering wheel and be super polite and compliant with the officer to reduce the chance of a cop getting scared and making a dumb mistake.

    Pointing out this side of the story is not to try to minimize the reality of bad police, or of people being killed who didn't deserve to be killed. But if we're interested in reducing police killings, we should acknowledge this side of the story too.
     
  11. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Doesn't matter if you say you have a license for legal carry. You always, always f'ing keep your hands where the cop can see them, ESPECIALLY if you tell the cop you have a gun. Do not tell the cop "I'm not pulling it out" because it can be heard as something else. Do not tell the cop "but I was reaching for..." The cop is out on the street and may not be able to hear you clearly or see inside clearly. Simply follow instructions by the cop EXACTLY and keep hands where cop can see them. Keep hands where cop can see them and do not engage in unnecessary talk or even reach for your wallet. STFU and only answer questions or act when spoken to or instructed by the cop.

    But yeah, this is Minneapolis...

    Also remember boys and girls, cops get tons and tons of training videos where shit like this goes the other way, where the cop gets wasted. To get a cop's perspective on time and how quickly they need to make a decision, watch that video where the Columbus cop shot the 16-year old with the knife. Had he acted a second sooner, the knife would have gone into that other girl's neck. I was like holy shit - if that were me, I would have acted too late. (With the evil side of me wanting to shoot everyone first and letting God decide - this is why I would make a horrible cop).

    Police oversight, policies, training, de-escalation are another matter - but individuals can easily take steps to prevent themselves from being killed by cop.
     
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    Last edited: May 8, 2021
  12. Metro

    Metro Friend

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    My wife was an attorney for many years at State Fund, the state of California's workers compensation agency. They had a running joke about the "Chief's Disease", a pattern of high ranking CHP officials filing for on-the-job work injury shortly before retirement, which entitles them to receive tax-free medical payments. In one case there was a claim for injury caused by falling out of an office chair. Investigation uncovered fraud and resulted in some arrests.

    https://www.poynter.org/archive/2005/case-study-the-sacramento-bee-tracks-a-tip/
     
  13. Pancakes

    Pancakes Friend

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    This. Even as a white man, I don't f**k around with cops. Hands on wheel, be polite, follow instructions. Better to not get shot than to make a point. Even following directions to a T, I've been handcuffed and put in the back of a cruiser. Ultimately let go because whatever beef they had was obvious bullshit but had I resisted or tried anything I don't want to think about what would have happened.
     
  14. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    Doesn't everyone who gets bruised or worse, in an encounter with police, get their injuries "resisting arrest?"
     
  15. LetMeBeFrank

    LetMeBeFrank Won't tell anyone my name is actually Francis

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    As a concealed carrier (honestly everyone should do this type of shit, carry or no) I pull out my licenses and registration, I roll all my windows down no matter how cold it is and put both hands on the steering wheel and comply with the officer. Also, in Michigan (or at least Wayne county) you have to tell them you have a concealed carry license and wether or not you have a concealed firearm. This has to be the first thing out of your mouth or they can and will harass you.
     
  16. crazychile

    crazychile Eastern Iowa's Spiciest Pepper

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    This is even more relevant today than when Chris Rock originally said it:
     
  17. Phantaminum

    Phantaminum Friend

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    I’ve had to train my wife and her younger brothers on handling police stops. Each one can be, sadly, potentially life ending. Stop the car in a safe place if possible, lower all of the windows, turn on the dome light, turn the car off, and both hands on the steering wheel. You can see that little bit of effort usually takes the edge off the stop.

    On the other hand don’t lie to yourself and think police culture does not need to be changed. Remember Christopher Dorner, he was a former police officer who went on a killing spree against his previous employer, the LAPD. That whole story is sad. One of many. The narrative against the black community is highly politicized because of systematic harassment from the police. They take it one step further and start to film encounters. Hence it easy to get them out into the news.

    There are good people in the police force. It just feels like the union has been protecting the bad apples for a long time now. Defund the police is dumb slogan but the intention is to hire the right people to deescalate situations or ride alone with them. That poor lady with dementia who walked out without paying at a supermarket was slammed to the ground. She didn’t even know where she was. They are just not equipped to handle these situations.

    It’s moving in the right direction. A friend of mine who graduated in sociology and psychology rides alone with police officers. She deescalates situations and the armed officer only steps in when her life could be in possibly danger.
     
  18. Stuff Jones

    Stuff Jones Friend

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    I don't know if it's moving in the right direction. Murders are way up across the country, especially among blacks. Why would a police officer risk their life to save someone knowing that they may be hated by virtue of their uniform and that any mistake will become a national story. By this estimate, 2,000 more black people were murdered in 2020 over 2019.

    https://razib.substack.com/p/the-ultimate-price-of-costless-gestures

    And here's a report from ground zero, Minneapolis where violent crime has predictably gone up since the protests and riots.

    https://mtracey.substack.com/p/one-year-after-george-floyd-minneapolis

    This pattern called the Ferguson effect has been observed after previous high profile police killings.

    https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w27324/w27324.pdf

    The headline on this piece is a bit sensationalized (surprise), but it gives you a perspective from the police side of things.

    https://thefederalist.com/2021/04/2...ional-racism-are-making-america-more-violent/

    Perhaps an movement that didn't artificially racialize the problem (e.g. ~2x as many unarmed white people are killed by police but we rarely hear about them) and that didn't demonize the police might be more effective in improving police accountability while not hurting communities destroying relationships with the police. A more sane less radicalized movement might also not have led to embarrassing scenes like this - https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1384325475657420802

    And it wouldn't have race relations back several decades. Notice the timing of the decline coincides with BLM's start in Ferguson: https://content.gallup.com/origin/g...roduction/Cms/POLL/m93slyugg06xznz9rzso1w.png
     
  19. penguins

    penguins Friend, formerly known as fp627

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    I don't have all the names off the top of my head, but many have. Of all colors or whatever "categorizer" is flavor of the day. The only difference I've seen is they usually don't make it to "high visibility" status.

    On a slightly different note, the biggest reform I want to see is no more paying for wrongful injury and deaths out of taxpayer general funding (or via more CHP tickets, bs mickey mouse ticket quotas in departments that have them, etc.).

    Deduct it from the general police retirement fund or something. Kill 2 birds with 1 stone as this would push normal or good cops (who do a dangerous job and do deserve the pension to a degree) to not defend bad cops. Psych101 - most people need to have skin in the game to care.

    Some would argue that is too light as they still get paid leave (you or I may lose our jobs for even landing in a similar situation), paid at least in part (and usually at least semi-decent) lawyers by the taxpayer, typically a lot more leniency in court, being able to prepare for your case while on leave if needed (you or I would be defending out case from jail if we don't or aren't allowed to post bail for the same thing), and many more. I see some validity to this argument, but on the flip side, I do get it's a dangerous job where you deal with multiple scumbags a day every day who may kill you whereas you or I usually deal with a few Karens verbally berating you here and there at most every day.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2021
  20. HHS

    HHS Almost "Made"

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    As long as we're talking truth in numbers here it's worthwhile to consider that even if ~2x the number of unarmed white people are killed by police the difference in population demographics still means unarmed black people are killed at a much higher rate (don't have the exact numbersI believe native Americans are killed by police at an even higher rate but I'd need to recheck that). I don't think the problems with police in this country are exclusively about race by any means, but there is rampant racial bias at play on US policing.

    As for spikes in violent crime, they're obviously concerning but I think there's a lot more to unpack in tracing the roots to draw many useful conclusions at this point
     

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