Merv's Politically Incorrect Audio Blog

Discussion in 'SBAF Blogs' started by purr1n, Dec 26, 2018.

  1. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    I'll try to approach this a little different. Lets not challenge the applicability of the labels "liberal" and "conservative". On responsibility, just as an example, from somewhere in the web:

    Conservative - Individuals should exercise personal responsibility and it is the governments role to hold them accountable even with severe penalties. Laws are enacted to reflect the best interest of the society as a whole.

    Liberal - The people should look to the government to provide a structure. Laws are enacted to protect every individual for an equal society sometimes at the expense of economic freedom if necessary.

    The conservative definition is flawed. Because it is impossible for the government to allow individuals to exercise personal responsibility however they prefer at the individual level, while simultaneously maintaining the best interest of society as a whole. The best interests of Joe, might not represent the best interest of Joe's society. Joe doesn't want a piece of the cake. Joe wants it all, f**k Joe's society. And for that, pick any Joe.

    The liberal definition is flawed. Because one cannot properly protect every individual with any single and universal structure. This is largely due to the fact that society is formed by unique and diverse individuals. Individuals are not equal. they are not equally productive and so on. Joe made a cake, and it's the sex. Joe's friend made a cake, and it's poo. Since Joe and Joe's fiend are equal in the eyes of society, they both get same remuneration for their efforts. Joe better be f'ing happy. f**k economic freedom.

    With that in mind. Note again that I'm allowing the definitions to exist for argument sake. Reality has no place for such strict definitions. Therefore we get what we generally term as corruption ("rule" bending) since adhering to such flawed definitions cannot be maintained.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2020
  2. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Part of this could be that @ultrabike and I, not being US born, and coming from countries with iffy governments, tend to highly distrust gov't. There is feeling of people in these countries that once money is given away to the government (or anyone else outside the family), that it will immediately be misused, mismanaged, stolen, etc.

    As for me, I once believed that perhaps the USA was different. Years of working in banking and lobbying institutions has me jaded. We are just as corrupt here, except that we have procedures and legalized methods. (This is why Blagojevich is such a dumbass - he deserves to be in prison just for his stupidity because he could have easily sold that Senate seat legally through his lawyers - doing things the Tony Soprano way does not jive).

    The issues are simply much more evident today with the challenges that the USA faces - there is simply less to go around. Our energy consumption is through the roof, our government debt (a lot of it to USA Citizens) is insane, we are being stretched in terms of foreign policy (UN, NATO, Asia Pacific, Middle-East), we no longer have global monopolies (IBM mainframes, Big 3 auto, etc.), we got rid of all our manufacturing so everybody could either be a tech-worker or barista, our wages have stagnated despite everyone working to death to maintain the USA's high productivity levels, etc.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2020
  3. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Indeed. Years as being a Mexican and now an American has thought me that at the core, things are not as different as some folks that have not experienced being integrated into two countries would believe.

    And by the way. The "tenencia" tax in Mexico I mentioned before is a perfect example of legalized corruption. Legalized methods to forcefully detach the population from their earnings is sort of a global thing.

    A funny thing isn't it. Take money away from the people, for the people.
     
  4. rhythmdevils

    rhythmdevils MOT: rhythmdevils audio

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    Lots of intelligent people in this thread!
    Why is that funny? That’s the basic function of government, to do things we wouldn’t do for ourselves because we’re too selfish. And it has to be funded.

    So you’re an anarchist then? Too extreme mate, too extreme.

    fix it, don’t get rid of it. ;)
     
  5. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Well in CA, an easy fix may be to move away. I would not be surprised if companies like Schiit left California within the next five years. Lots of small mom-and-pop kinds of businesses around the Valley and LA County (box manufacturers, metal fabricators, laser engravers, etc.) have already left.

    Gavin Newsome knows how awesome it is. No matter how much I get ahead in my finances, he knows he can keep taxing me more because of the beaches, the mountains, and the weather.
     
  6. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    Right. We are a nation of laws, constitution, and have "procedural justice", but these (Classical Liberal) systems can be made to serve a small aristocratic cohort just like any other system. For us, it's that small but well connected group who all go to the same schools (Harvard, Yale, etc.) and who end up in the same positions such as corp. board rooms, media opinion makers, in congress, or running the feeder system (universities, etc.). These people all have essentially the same opinions (even if they are nominally divided between "right" and "left", "Republican" and "Democrat") and same goals.

    Their downfall, if there is to be one, will be what they did/are doing to the middle class and its institutions (such as local schools, local government and civic institutions, etc.). In this they just like so many others in history.

    Any system can be made to work for or against virtue. I am partial to monarchy (which is not to be confused with despotism, totalitarianism, etc.) given the fact that most of mankind has lived happily and virtuously under one throughout history. The thing our Classical Liberal system can not do is answer the question "what is virtue?"...
     
  7. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Exactly! What really is the difference between Republican or Democrat if both candidates were part of the "Skull and Bones" club at Yale or Harvard.

    In California, same thing: we have the old old old California families* of Pelosi, Newsom/Getty, Brown. Once we a while, someone gets lucky to get inducted into the club like Harris. All major political positions in California have been largely pre-ordained. It was already so obvious where Gavin was headed when he became SF Mayor almost two decades ago.

    * The vast vast majority of Californians are recent imports, typically from Asia or the Midwest of the USA. I start a lot of conversations when I wear my U of M paraphrenia. Usually from other U of M folks or Ohio.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2020
  8. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Believe me. In Mexico there are Liberals and Conservatives. Similar, if not exact same definitions. In fact, those two labels were actual party names south of the border.

    These days, AFAIK, PAN = Conservatives. PRD/Morena = Liberals. PRI is more of a middle ground that proved to be just as shit as anything else.

    It's funny because while it's true that a group requires infrastructure feed by individual contributions, and properly enforced, many times it's the perfect excuse to take money from this random group of people, and give it to this other random people. Cuz power can. The White House and the Kremlin for example are far from your average peasant house. And it's paid by the people... for the people?

    I feel that if I move, again, it's just a different brand of shit.
     
  9. dark_energy

    dark_energy Friend

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    Regarding taxes , I should have the option to opt out of the old model where I give over 70% of my money (This real in most countries) to the state and some Porker thinks we need more taxes. Id rather vote with my money like patreon and donations , not joking. The parts of the state that dont get donations will just cease to excist.
     
  10. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Exactly.

    Desert with hurricanes (worse than ever) or constant rain + "professional" protestors, 99% white, with excess tattoos and piercings, parking downtown for months.
     
  11. rhythmdevils

    rhythmdevils MOT: rhythmdevils audio

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    Maybe that and me being very idealistic among other differences.
     
  12. Senorx12562

    Senorx12562 Case of the mondays

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    Make no mistake, all government action is taken under threat of violence to be visited upon the noncompliant. I am very uncomfortable with such action being undertaken in my name.
     
  13. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    Yep. We qualify their social structures, often based on loyalty to a tribe, feudal system, or just an individual, as worse than post 1800 nationalism. Yet they would not and do not currently think so. They were and are content enough to fight to the death over it.

    The societies that are not willing to fight and flee instead... those countries have problems. The states run out of men willing to impose the state because there is no confidence in the leadership, state, and society. These countries are not both sides in the American Civil War or World War I flinging men at each other until one collapses. It's more Mad Max including the blown up desert hellscape.
     
  14. dark_energy

    dark_energy Friend

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    I think today it is more about balance. Goverments that impose TV, internet and car tax are retarded
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2020
  15. YMO

    YMO Chief Fun Officer

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    When I turned 18 I was super influenced by my father of course, who was a hard "Conservative" with questionable beliefs (pretty much racist and ok with some form of government head care, but hard 100% Pro-Israel no question ask attitude).

    This was around 2008 when Obama-Mania was huge. That year I voted for McCain and that was the only big election that I voted for a major political party. It was during my time in college when I realized the following quickly:
    • People vote too much on feelings.
    • People don't give a f**k about policy.
    • People are hypocritical with beliefs.
    I will admit, college does change people. Stereotype is that college makes you a "Liberal" who talks about social justice. For me, it made me hate how disgusting and too powerful our federal government is and the hypocritical nature of both political parties. The College Democrats saw that I wasn't "white" and asked if I wanna joy them. I told them I don't like big government and I disagree with most things the Democrat party wants to do. The College Republicans found out by speaking to me that I was Jewish and they were trying to push the Pro-Israel 100% GOP loves Israel BS to the point it creeped me the f**k out. Also I thought the College Republicans were part of the good ole-bois network into political jobs (which I found out it is partly true, some of the elected Republicans in FL government level started with the Young or College Republicans).

    I admit, as someone who later became 19 both sides kind of gross me out. It was before I finished College that I discovered the Libertarians and to be honest: Majority of their Party Planks speaks to me. I swear each day/year my reason's of having my beliefs gets stronger and stronger.

    I think I pissed off my local friends at my cigar shop. Most are veterans who bitch about the medical treatment from the VA. I said you know why I don't like government getting involved with healthcare like Medicare and ACA? Look at the VA. Look at how wasteful my tax money going into shitty services to the point that even Vets who are well off avoid like the plague. I said congrats my friends we have socialize medical services in the US, and it is the VA. I dunno why but my friends (all of them are "Conservatives") started to bitch at me and don't want to admit the truth.

    I dunno why I'm saying this, but it also reminds me something I noticed about my fellow Americans:
    • Americans do not like shit taken away from them.
      • I don't think ACA will survive with the Supreme Court, and I think how the bill was design was just a f**k up on medical cost. Once Americans are used to something they bitch when you take it away from them.
    • Living in your own reality is common.
      • Hang around with your same friends in the same suburbs. Gross.
     
  16. scapeinator1

    scapeinator1 Once You Go Black You'll Never Go Back

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    Ok but...are you saying that you don't think that veterans should get some benefits especially when they serve our nation honorably? Also, what should we do about PTSD?

    Also, even if you don't like the ACA, what is your plan to solve the problem of making sure people get health care? Just have people show up to the emergency room with no insurance and have the hospitals eat that cost? That was already causing a litany of problems.

    I respect that you are a libertarian but aren't there some things that are problems that deserve government attention?

    Sometimes it isn't all that tenable to just leave people to rot. And I know that you don't see it that way, but I can tell you from what I have seen that is how it works if there is no safety net support.
     
  17. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    The differences in freedom and happiness is that humans are likely better adapted through evolution to live out the unpleasantness back then. Today much our of unhappiness is psychological. We are bound by the very artificial strictures of modern society.

    For example, in 2020, I can't realistically roam from my home to hunt boar with a few neighbors, bring the beast back, gut at the intersection, and start a bonfire to cook it and share with the rest of the street. We also worry about stupid shit like we heard this DAC which was so awesome that we needed to spend $3k to get it. Not only that, we also realized that another $1k in cables and HDMI i2s was necessary, otherwise we would be unhappy. Plague today means we can't go out to eat and need to work from home looking at screens that show facsimiles of people that we used to talk to in person.

    Plague back then probably meant that 50% of us were goners, and that those infected were treated by doctors with funny Halloween costumes. If anyone got gored by the boar while hunting, there was probably a 85% chance of death. Then maybe there would be some bad years when the crops didn't grow, so lots of folks got super hungry and lost 20lbs that season. Are far as health insurance, there was no such a thing.

    I think humans may actually be better off suffering big calamities, most them physical, once in a while (olden times) than a thousand small calamities, most of them psychological, on a daily basis.
     
  18. scapeinator1

    scapeinator1 Once You Go Black You'll Never Go Back

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    As much as I respect your opinion on a lot of things, this is just not a reasonable thing to say. The level of human suffering back then was not good in any respect.

    You wouldn't have this opinion if you thought you would be the one dying. Getting gored to death by a boar sounds terrible. Why would that ever be a good thing for people?

    I'm not saying the modern world is perfect, but the concept that society hasn't made positive progress is just not a reasonable assertion. There are always things that we can learn from our forbearers, but I wouldn't wish death via the bubonic plague on anyone. Have you seen the suffering of seeing a parent watch their child die? Just because people in previous generations "dealt with it" doesn't mean that isn't a horrible thing.

    It truly saddens me to see you say something like this.
     
  19. dark_energy

    dark_energy Friend

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    Great point. You might need some decent health care 3 times in 10 years ( real issues like shoulder injury) - It is a service. You need to pay for it but you have paid for it already but it sucks and isnt even avilable for You because it sucks, so you pay Again to go to Private doctor. This is the reality. Then you might ask why you need the middlemen( as in wasteful goverment and corruption). The more middle man you have between your labor and your net payout at the end of the month the less you get. It might be the same analogy here... All I am saying, it might be a good question to ask which is better - less "state" upkeep or more.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2020
  20. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    I can say this because I've dealt with death of very close friends at a young age (three before I turned 30).

    All we are doing is delaying the inevitable.

    It was only two years ago when I was in the hospital, my body broken and getting worse, absolutely ready to die, going over my life to that point, and actually feeling good about what I had accomplished. I actually texted a few Catholic friends and asked them to pray for me. I thought I was a goner.

    I knew deep in my heart that my wife and kids would eventually get over it and move on. They would be OK, as all other humans before them who have suffered the premature death of a loved one.

    Oh yes, I most certainly can say this.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2020

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