MicroZOTL 2

Discussion in 'Headphone Amplifiers and Combo (DAC/Amp) Units' started by richard51, Dec 10, 2015.

  1. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    89,777
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    Hey, you are the one who implied it might be awesome saying it was a break from tradition, and Berning was a physicist, blah, blah, blah, while ignoring 'meh" impressions from two guys who's hearing I trust. We aren't stupid here. We assume stuff with that kind of marketing and cult-like status sucks unless proven otherwise. I am more than willing to be proven wrong, and I have been many times in the past.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2015
  2. richard51

    richard51 Mr. Sorbothane

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2015
    Likes Received:
    49
    Trophy Points:
    43
    i cannot read circuit...... But Berning is a physicist at the american standard office... you have written in one of your post that circuit sheet if you dont understand his design why post that if like me you dont understand it? i am interested by hearing experience about a new product with a topology that i dont understand like you.... why post that like an argument , i dont understand your reaction to my honest , and straighforward demand ....
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2015
  3. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    89,777
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    If error it not a option, then take a conservative route and consider proven products where established members can vouch for it. What it sounds like to me is that you are fishing for nuggets to validate this choice where the marketing and cult-like status has you quite smitten. We won't give you positive affirmation of your choice here.
     
  4. richard51

    richard51 Mr. Sorbothane

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2015
    Likes Received:
    49
    Trophy Points:
    43
    i had read and appreciate these opinions and thanks for them in my last posts... i respond to your remarks only ...
     
  5. richard51

    richard51 Mr. Sorbothane

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2015
    Likes Received:
    49
    Trophy Points:
    43
    for sure i am here to balance many impressions for making a final decision...your remarks are the only remarks here without real personal experience of the product.... I dont want bashing comment... By the way the messiah or guru of amplifier does not exist for sure...i trust only the quality /price ratio...And i am only curious about REAL impression of the product... thanks anyway for your interest... i hope some other experience.... 1 thousand dollars is a big money for me...
     
  6. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    89,777
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    I precisely said that I didn't totally get it (at a glance), not that I had no clue. There is a difference.

    Look, you are probably going buy this anyways because the fact that Berning has advertised he is is a physicist with 180 IQ is very important to you. You will search the Internet until you find the person who gives you the answer that you want.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2015
  7. richard51

    richard51 Mr. Sorbothane

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2015
    Likes Received:
    49
    Trophy Points:
    43
    i am astonished by your reception and opinion of my post....i only want to have opinion of guys who have really hearing this amplifier... and now you decide that my curiosity about that product is only hyping stupidity... wow thanks anyway...i will wait other more placid impression....by the way it is impossible to understand half of an equation or half of a design topology...we understand or not...
     
  8. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

    Staff Member Pyrate MZR
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    12,285
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Colorado
    Home Page:
    A few things...

    1. Head-Fi is more a reflection of the audio industry as a whole. Outside of a few forums, or even a few individuals, you will tend to find overly positive reviews for nearly any product you can find from a variety, and often numerous, sources. Whether or not it is a spin, honest opinion, or someone just has bad ears and finds everything awesome, doesn't change how the industry works. This is not exclusive to Head-Fi, but rather just the general feel-good, positive affirmation of the industry and hobby (with Head-Fi having some of its own unique traits, yes). Don't fall into the trap of, "Many people think it is good, thus it must be." Instead, find very specific individuals you KNOW you can trust. The ones you KNOW are not only knowledgeable but that you can easily correlate your own tastes and experiences with. Don't follow the crowd, or what appears to be a crowd if you are set on buying something, for the sake of following the crowd. The opposite side of the coin would be people who lead with measurements and not with their ears. That is, the people who only care what measurements tell them to hear and ignore all subjectivity. My advice? Follow and worship neither. Keep an open mind, and consider all information, but take your own path.

    2. Don't fall prey to any appeal to authority fallacy. It's more common than not for a product or brand to slap some "expert" name behind it, as if anyone who has done anything and has a big enough ego to tout their name as a guarantee of greatness actually has something worthwhile. Yes, sometimes these "expert" names are driven by fans. Sometimes rightly so, sometimes not. Unfortunately, there is no guarantee any of this will lead to a good product. Even then, a physicist isn't necessarily going to be a good electrical/audio engineer or have good ears. Now, if you find a specific individual consistently puts out products you really enjoy, then by all means, keep close tabs on them and respect them for consistently delivering something you like.

    3. Why are you interested in unique designs? Nothing about uniqueness implies, well, anything other than uniqueness. Unique does not necessarily equal good. A car with only two front wheels and no back wheels would certainly be unique (or so I would hope), but not a good car for normal car purposes. Some of the best sounding designs are rather pedestrian and common. Sometimes the key is just a slight tweak or a specific part selection. I'm sure there are also common designs that sound bad. There are unique designs that sound good, and some bad. Sometimes common designs are followed blindly, and sometimes for a good reason. Some common sense designs are rather unique, some not. So why focus on whether or not something is unique? Don't let that be a focal point UNLESS you know a particular design choice appeals to your tastes (for example, my preference for multi-bit, non-oversampling DACs - the latter of which tends to NOT appeal to most, nor is it particularly unique, really). And stop worrying about designs you don't understand or try to talk down to people like they're less intelligent for not understanding it when you yourself don't seem to understand it either. Again, a crazy, complex, and/or unique design doesn't guarantee good sound at all.

    You seem to be looking less for genuine, subjective thoughts on this product but more a way to justify a reason to buy this amp. Believe it or not, guys like purrin have enough experience in the industry that they can actually give surprisingly solid advice without hearing a product. Doesn't mean it will always be on the mark, but sometimes it can be spooky close.

    I've been in the same situation as you, eyeballing a product in the same way and pushing aside good advice that might discourage me (which, whether or not you want to recognize, you are). It usually leads to disappointment after the honeymoon period. Sometimes it works out, but not usually.

    But, hey, if you have an itch you need to scratch, why ask us? If you're set on buying it, you can either listen to the advice you asked for or just save yourself some time and just buy it. You might feel better if you just buy it...for now, at least. Can't guarantee forever.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2015
  9. No_One411

    No_One411 Fired by Jude

    Staff Member Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    560
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Saratoga, CA
    http://www.head-fi.org/t/771234/microzotl2-tube-headphone-amp-and-preamp-a-breakthrough-device

    Some supplemental reading for you. There are plenty of people here who will tell you that Berning is a god and that the MicroZOTL is super special awesome sauce.

    PS: They also own the amp so stop being a child.
     
  10. richard51

    richard51 Mr. Sorbothane

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2015
    Likes Received:
    49
    Trophy Points:
    43
    i thank you for your kind and lucid remarks...i am here because this site is a meeting if independant mind...i want to buy an amplifier in the future yes...I dont want aspproval or bashing... only independant opinion about a not so well known product ... is it a guenine inquiring post if i ask about that here? i had think so....
     
  11. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    89,777
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    If you were truly curious you tell us about the headphones you intend to use. I have some concerns. The power output with a 4 ohm load is 1W with 1% THD. And with a 14 ohm load, it's 0.5W 1% THD. 1% distortion is really high. I would ask what the power output is for 33 and 330 ohm loads since these are more realistic headphone loads. With the way that curve is moving, it might be under-powered for moderately efficient headphones.

    Please do not shift the argument and create straw man arguments. My statement concerning the circuit was in direct response to your "a revolutionary break from usual tube amp topology" assertion. This amp is cannot be considered a tube amp.

    Also, it is possible to understand parts of a audio circuit and still get the overall gist it of. This is not mathematics where proofs are necessary.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2015
  12. richard51

    richard51 Mr. Sorbothane

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2015
    Likes Received:
    49
    Trophy Points:
    43
    you are not very kind...i have a little more than 15 years old... and i dont know why you insult me because i want some impression here...
     
  13. richard51

    richard51 Mr. Sorbothane

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2015
    Likes Received:
    49
    Trophy Points:
    43
    i had 3 headphones... and a set of speakers...... he 400, fostex th 7 b, stax basic, and monsoon speakers... One of the fact that attract my attention is that the zotl was apparently a good pre-amp... and i had read that it will drive efficient speakers...
     
  14. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

    Staff Member Pyrate MZR
    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2015
    Likes Received:
    8,960
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Irvine CA
    @richard51, it seems to me that some folks in this forum have indeed heard the amp in question. Let's see:

    Shaffer: "I owned a Berning amplifier ~25 years ago. Still have the weirdo tubes for it."
    Ishcabible: "The bass sounded a little off to me though." "It sounded a little unnatural.".
    Smitty: "the sound is kinda grainy. The staging was also funky." "I don't really feel like giving it another shot"

    None of these impressions are IMO possitive:
    1. Seems finding replacement parts is difficult.
    2. Bass is weird.
    3. Sound is grainy.
    4. Staging is funky.
    It is unlikely that one will find a ton of impressions on an expensive and somewhat esoteric product. So IMO the above is already plenty to tell me, from impressions, that this amp is proly not for me. And proly not for you.

    Now as far as David Berning, lets bring a few points on the article you brought up:
    1. "Some of my technical friends said it did not measure very well." - Not good.
    2. "David was a gentle, modest genius who worked for the US Patent Office at the time." - Working in the US Patent Office is IMO not impressive.
    I'm not getting why is this guy a genious from the papers there, or why his designs in general are so special. Other than, they sound awesome acording to Bolling Bryant. I have no clue who Bryant is.

    IMO, don't look any further. Spend you hard earn money on something else. From the subjectives side of things, let's say folks that heard his stuff here in this forum don't seem impressed. From the objective side of thins his stuff in general does "not measure very well" based on the paper you linked.
     
  15. rott

    rott Secretly hates other millenials - Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2015
    Likes Received:
    1,176
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Nation's Capital of failure
    Relax, you're not being insulted. I don't think the more experienced/knowledgable members here have had the opportunity to audition the MicroZOTL, and what they've stated is probably in your best interest. They're not bashing the amp.
     
  16. JoshMorr

    JoshMorr Friend

    Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2015
    Likes Received:
    3,066
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Portland, ME
    Post #11 is particularly interesting on the head - fi thread
     
  17. richard51

    richard51 Mr. Sorbothane

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2015
    Likes Received:
    49
    Trophy Points:
    43
    thanks ultrabike for your kind and logical reply... but i cannot make a conclusion immediately after only this 3 impression...and i dont trust apparatus i trust opinions...
     
  18. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    89,777
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    Nope. I can be kind of a dick. I tend to say a lot of things people don't like to hear.

    Curious, what gear (amps, sources, etc.) do you currently have? What gear do you like? What don't you like about your current gear? These are much more important questions to ask yourself than how the microZOTL sounds like. If we don't have any common references, than none of our impressions will matter.
     
  19. richard51

    richard51 Mr. Sorbothane

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2015
    Likes Received:
    49
    Trophy Points:
    43
    no offence thanks for your time and interest with my post asking opinions anyway.....i had plenty of time (8 months ) to wait for argument and opinions about that product...
     
  20. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

    Staff Member Pyrate MZR
    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2015
    Likes Received:
    8,960
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Irvine CA
    Dude, 3 impressions is plenty for an amps such as this. This is not a Fiio product that everyone and their mom had before, now and after. I'm also not familiar with Bryant (the reviewer in the paper you listed). But I've read Ischabible, Smitty, and Shaffer's impressions before and IMO they are not randoms. You can check their posts here and at changstar to see where they are comming from and what they like.

    Also, as pointed out by @JoshMorr, this is what you wrote @ HF:

    This you wrote based on 1 impression. Not 3. One. And from it you said "I am sold". So why ask for more. Buy it.
     

Share This Page