Munich High End 2016

That statement is not true. How can a single unit (in a headphone) have more resolution than a three or four way design with supertweeter? Absolutely impossible.

In any case i don't want o spoil your fun and enthusiasm.

Carry on and present the rest of the systems, in the end of the day it is about having fun with all these things.

 

What? Since when does a crossover and multiple drivers, each with their own problems make a speaker more resolving? There were reports on changstar when the Voxativ Ampeggio were one of the most resolving speakers at the show a few years back. (The Show 2012)
I would say the main advantage of headphones is that you have one driver reproducing all the sounds in the audible band. Also the imaging tends to get worse as you have multiple sound sources.
Also 1ms reverb time vs 300ms reverb time helps a ton with resolution. I would bet that any speaker system is much more resolving either outside or in an anechoic chamber.

I want to take up on this again. Some time back we got to listen to the new NuVero 140 which is supposed to be a fantastic value at 5k€ (and I don't doubt that).
Sorry, but it was not. even. close.
It might have had better imaging than my dad's speakers in the room they are now, but that doesn't matter when it makes everything sound like MP3. Compared to my dad's Canton's the resolution was subpar. So many details went missing, it was not even funny. Also horrible bass quality in comparision. And those are very likely good speakers for the money.
So in a way I would say that they are better than the most modest speaker systems but worse than the best.

 

I don't really have impressions for the rest of the systems. Mostly I just walked in and walked out again after a few seconds.

Would you mind sharing some of your impressions with us? I think this would help us understand where you are coming from.

 

Where i come form? Ok

I have studied music (classical guitar) during my school days at the Atteneum music school in Greece in the early 80's. http://www.athenaeum.com.gr/en/
I loved to listen to music mainly classical and it was evident from the early years that you need a good system in order to do this properly.
As a university student ( I am a dental surgeon now) i worked part time in hifi/hiend stores to be able to finance my hobby.
The systems i had were many and never really hiend.
Only in recent years (last 10 years) have i got to know the world of hiend, and i have made a lot of friends through the forums and by personally meeting at shows etc.
I have got to know most of the Greek dealers personally, and slowly are meeting most of the US press people and dealers, this time i met Steven Rochlin which was great.
Met and had chats with the legend Andrew Jones, and Antony Michaelson.
I am constantly learning and this is what i love about this hobby, and this is why i am a member of this forum, because there are a lot of knowledgeable people here.

That is basically who i am.

I apologize if i sounded like a wise ass know it all.

Tidal room was very good (i met the owner Jörn Janczak and he told us the crazy story of the guy that bought directly from him a 500.000 euro system and how they got drunk for two weeks afterwards to celebrate...), Maarten room not so good, it had severe issues with high frequency energy of the speaker, and the rest of the chain had nothing to do with this... this was fatiguing, the Absolare room had problems with the integrated amplifier which was not able to control the Rockports (i have a friend in Athens who has these and have had more than a few listens paired with the large Luxman monoblocks... nothing wrong with this speaker).
The expensive MSB amp driving the Stax sounded very good, not worth the money, but didn't notice anything wrong, in fact this is the best i have heard the Stax 009 ever.
The Zelaton room was from fantastic to very good (they changed things during the 4 days, not sure what though that is why the difference in sound during the show, there is no "fake detail" here just pure detail.

 

Needs a soundtrack. End of derailment...

 

Could be, the midrange driver has severe ringing at 9kHz. Im sure they use a notch filter in addition to their first order x-over, because the first order xover at 4kHz would never be enough.

It was the best that I heard it in some specific ways (tone, ...), but not in others.

Idk, it was just WAY TOO BRIGHT for me with some Daft Punk and Kraftwerk that they played, even off axis.

 

Found this youtube video of the Nagra room that garnered seemingly universal praise.



I think this is the exact same setup I heard in Montreal except with Wilson Alexia speakers instead of the Joseph Pearl 3. That and they are playing tape in this video and not the Sparta TT.

Anyhow, sounds damn fine for a youtube video IMO. Maybe a bit too warm but otherwise really hard to fault.

 

^Yup, 1000% this.

I think I know what you mean. Not 100% sure though. Makes sense that the spatial aspects are much better heard on speakers.

Which particular drivers that you thought were more resolving than the Accutons are you talking about? I want to explore all the options.

Now that you said it, this makes perfect sense (and is likely why @Chris1967 thought they were bright and fatiguing). I spent nearly all my time in the Marten room in the sweet spot. That's the tradeoff with the first order cross overs.
(shaizada's don't have 1st order xovers but probably still not as steep as most other speakers)

Yup, when I had my dad's speakers in my room I put blankets on the walls at the first reflection point. Improved imaging by 500%.

LOL, I wanted to comment on the Giya bass but decided not to.

Especially the Cell type Accuton drivers. But I really don't want a speaker that I won't like and I've not yet heard a speaker within my budget that I liked. Would much rather get a pretty good turntable than a shitty speaker. DIY seems like the only option (I do have some experience with drivers that I got for free and trying to design an xover with parts I had lying around.).

I should say that I really don't want to rush this. The last thing I want to do is end up with some of the most expensive drivers and have them sound like metal pots banging against eachother. Who knows, maybe I will find a speaker that I really like and will not go the DIY route after all ...

 

I can't stand the Accuton sound either, but they do look pretty.

What ever happened to just using good old fashioned paper or fiber or similar. May not pass the ultra super low distortion tests, but the good ones have killer tone. One of the best drivers I've heard in a box an amateur could build was the early model Altec 755.

 

Marv, i would like you to explain to me how you define speaker resolution, and if possible furnish me some reading material about single speaker resolution vs multi speaker.

My opinion is that good speaker always image better than headphones, the HD800 are very good i own a pair myself for over 5 years now and know it very well (have done lots of mods to it too) but they do not come close to good speakers in any way.

Magico speakers... i don't get it... they always sound not right, i remember 2 years ago in Munich their cost no object 600.000 speaker sounded awful with clear problems in the crossover frequencies. Also didn't get the part that such a large speaker needed also subwoofers to get the bass right...

The Maartens sounded very fatiguing even in the sweet spot and i listened to them twice, once with the small amps and with the big ones.

The Voxativs unforunately are only good for small jazz orchestra and any material that has not a lot of extension, unforunately that is what they are...

I don't know about old fart audiophiles and their dicks, i know that the manufacturers are taking advantage of the growing hiend market, and you must know the "rules" that apply in this business, or any business for that matter. There are new markets with plenty newly rich people, there is a demand and they are covering it. You also must know the relation of cost and development vs manufacturer pricing vs dealer pricing. The more expensive the more money the dealers make. It is money earning game.

I am most certainly not in a postion to be a hiend audiphile (buying new multi thousand dollar equipment, which i cannot afford) , but i must say that a lot of the systems sounded very good even in the difficult conditions of the show, and knowing some of the manufacturers i know that a lot (most) of products are not snake oil. If i had the money i must certainly would buy a five figure speaker.

By the way i heard the new Β&W 800D3 in the first presentation (not in the MOC) and found them to be excellent for the 30.000 they are asking, got to peak at the technology, they had all the parts dismantled, and i can tell you there is a lot of material, and r&d in this speaker. The only small thing was a tendency for siblilance but it could be the material they played not sure.




I know two local manufacturers in Greece that make speakers (and a few of the big names nordic included) , i have to tell you building a speaker is the most difficult thing to do, if you want it to sound right. Even these guys get feedback from us in the audio community.

 

A buddy of mine (a forty year old, long time hifi junky) went to this show and insists Zellaton is the no.1. Personally he told me they ain't that bright, any misunderstood here maybe? Brighter than Marten is super bright?