New iFi Zen DAC/amp for Tidal HiFi & Masters

Discussion in 'Headphone Amplifiers and Combo (DAC/Amp) Units' started by Claud, Oct 25, 2019.

  1. Claud

    Claud Living the ORFAS dream

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    Last edited: Oct 25, 2019
  2. Lyander

    Lyander Official SBAF Equitable Empathizer

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    Might be useful to have the brand and model name in the title?

    I'm a fan of iFi gear, I've had a Micro iDSD for a few years now— it still sounds nice for the price, and based on lengthy demos I might happily own a Pro iCan given sufficient funding, just for the Swiss Army knife approach. Only real concern (besides occasionally poo design decisions like toggles at the bottom) is that same do-everything including the laundry philosophy occasionally making the bulk of features redundant when you're not using, say, an iDSD or Pro as an all-in-one. That tanks the value proposition a wee bit.

    Been intrigued by this one, I'm saving up for an affordable AIO for measurements and lazy Sunday bed listening; the Micro iDSD doesn't count since it runs into channel balance issues because of the IEMatch switch and is kinda bulky for lugging around to shops alongside other measurement thingies.

    Also, MQA can go eat tree bark.
     
  3. Yethal

    Yethal Facebook Friend

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    How much you want to bet that in a few months iFi is going to announce a Zen amp with pentacon balanced input but won't release a pentacon interconnect to pair them up?
     
  4. Ksaurav402

    Ksaurav402 Friend

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    Very appropriately priced as AIO in nice footprint with balanced out for office or bedroom set up.
    Let's hope it sounds good as well. Schiit is also coming with new Fulla, so interesting days ahead.
     
  5. wormcycle

    wormcycle Friend

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    It looks interesting for two reasons: I am always interested in a balanced solution in this price range because I use 2xNuforce HPA200 in my setup and I do not want to spend much for just decent volume control and DAC.
    The second reason is that I do not remember when, if ever, I have seen such an ugly, even offensive design. It reminds me of MQA
     
  6. Claud

    Claud Living the ORFAS dream

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    It might not be pretty, but at $129 from our sponsor, Bloom Audio, it is a cheap solution for those that want to enjoy Tidal.
     
  7. Aiibo

    Aiibo New

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    I'm listening to a Zen DAC these days. I've done most of the listening in my room system - Cyrus 8vs2 amp, Acoustic Energy Aegis Evo 3 speakers. I also tried it with few easy to drive headphones - Takstar Pro 82, AKG K92 and IEMs like Tin Audio T2. It sounded quite OK and powerful enough for these. I'm still hoping to receive Senn HD6xx soon, but until then I have nothing more demanding to try it with.

    Out of the box it's a bit bass-loose and vocals sounded a bit too laid back to my ears. But when I flashed it with latest 5.3c firmware, it started to sound much better to my ears - snappier, more precise, bass became better controlled and vocals more prominent. Also, when I added my DIY power supply to it (made by SupperTeddyReg schematics) it really came alive with better instrument separation and darker background.

    Compared to Modi 3, I found ZEN to sound more fluid all over the frequency range, from bass, through vocals, to cymbals - Modi 3 sounded more dry in compassion. On the other hand ZEN was clearly less rhythmic and precise out of the box, it's warmish and sluggish bass was something I didn't appreciate and if I was pressed to choose one I would keep Modi 3 for it's foot tapping qualities. But after installing new firmware, ZEN's weakest points - speed and rhythmic precision - improved. On the other hand, its good points like bass weight and fluid character remained. At that point I actually started favoring ZEN over Modi 3. Lastly, when my linear PS is added it does little for Modi 3 but makes distinct difference for ZEN, adding to tone weight and some sort of calmness I perceived as increased background darkness. Sound-stage gained slightly more depth to it in my room system. That made everything sound a bit more present and believable to my ears. This change was now clearly putting its overall sound quality heads and shoulders above Modi's to my ears.

    I actually got Zen DAC on a loan from iFi, for a review on my YT channel. At first I just wanted to conclude it's a decent sounding, feature packed device and ship it back, but after flashing new firmware and then adding linear PS I decided to purchase it instead and sold off my Modi 3. I'm looking forward to getting Modi Multibit next time and see how it fares against Zen.
     
  8. Raimei Templar

    Raimei Templar Friend

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    I have had the zen dac for about a month and its a pretty good little unit.

    The dac portion is much stronger than the amp portion. The amp is very underpowered. It sounds really good, its quite natural and sounds like its basically just amplifying the DACs output near as I can tell rather than altering it anyway but power is lacking. If you go into the high gain and go past about 12 oclock it starts distorting and sounds harsh, brittle and overly bright. Its got enough power for my Hifiman HE5se single ended but only JUST barely. Going balanced gives more headroom and its pretty acceptable as long as you only want to listen at a moderate level.

    The specs IFI gave for the amp are misleading IMO, as it doesnt put out anywhere near that level of power. I assume they are weighting them at 10% THD or some high number which I really dont care for.

    The Dac section is quite pleasant, fun and has very punchy but somewhat dirty sounding bass. Its a sound I guess a lot of people would enjoy. Its got a pretty intimate sound to it, especially the bass which is pretty forward. I think its not as detailed as some other dacs out there as its going for a more easy listening kind of sound.

    Compared to the Modi, I first prefered the Zen DAC as I found it to be funner and have much more weight to the bass but overtime I have come to prefer the Modi 3. The modi offers a wider, more spacious soundstage and it does something magical to female vocalists that I really enjoy. Its a pleasant heavenly subtle kind of sparkle that makes vocalists like Anette Olzon really shine. I listened to the whole Dark Element album with both of them and the Modi was just much more enjoyable owning to that sparkle. I would say the Modi is more detailed as well.

    The DSD performance is outstanding, this is actually one of the best DSD dacs I have heard. I have a really strange DSD version of Billy Jean that some dacs actually cannot play at all but the Zen DAC played it with no issues whatsoever. I have to say the DSD files sounded considerably better to me than PCM did. Generally I think the opposite so that was interesting!

    I didnt try the GTO filter much as to be honest I dont like that it takes away the bitperfect aspect of the burrbrown chip. I think if they are going to go big on the GTO thing they should probably upgrade to some newer dac chips that might offer better performance.

    I find Ailbos result with the linear power supply interesting because on my unit at least, I must admit I dont think the 5v input is doing much of anything. I got a 5v3a power adapter and tried using it but it seemed to make no difference at all. With the Modi when you plug in a power adapter it causes the Modi to register as a powered device and stop drawing power from its data port. The Zen doesnt do this near as I can tell, it seems like its drawing power anyway and then using the 5v if its not getting enough power. While I admit not having the technical ability to verify this I can say plugging in or unplugging the adapter while listening did absolutely nothing at all.

    I also had some annoying issues with the Zen making annoying popping and distorted sounds randomly. I had to unplug it and plug it back in to fix it. It generally only did it once per day so it wasnt the end of the world, but its still irritating. Using the power adapter didnt stop this from happening.

    Overall I think the Zen is a pretty good option for a starter amp/dac combo at its price if you are only going to use sensitive headphones or you can go balanced for moderately inefficient headphones. Its a really great way to get into MQA if your into it or if your really into DSD as its at its best there IMO.For PCM I prefer Modi and since that is what I listen to 99% of the time I will just keep Modi and sell the Zen.
     
  9. Baten

    Baten Friend

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    Agree with both these points, my findings were the same. Cheers for the solid review ;)
     
  10. Claud

    Claud Living the ORFAS dream

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    I started this thread because I found a cheap internet appliance to use for listening to Tidal Masters and of course regular Tidal and other on line music. $129 shipped from our sponsor, Bloom Audio and others. I needed some 4.4 balanced terminated cords so I ordered them Black Friday weekend from Norne Audio. They arrived late last week and the ZEN DAC the week before. Having studied peoples posts about the ZEN DAC I chose my OPPO PM-3 and Senn HD 660S headphones to do duty with ZEN DAC and my DAPs. Right out of the box, the Senn sounded a touch more resolving than the OPPO. Bass Boost also was a bot overpowering on both headphones until I played with the power/gain matching button.
    The IMAC, Zen DAC and the Oppo headphones will all go back to our beach home the beginning of April. A12027C4-CA17-4C95-911B-8F8B6A960423_1_201_a.jpeg
     
  11. Claud

    Claud Living the ORFAS dream

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    Zen DAC installed and really rocking with Oppo PM-3s at my beach home. Listening to some Trance by Armin Van Buuren on Tidal, the bass is really coming together. Love the bass Bost with trance.
     
  12. Kouon

    Kouon New

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    I just got my Zen in (it was previously for my friend but, spoiler alert, I like it enough that I'm keeping this copy and purchasing another one for him).

    Currently it's taking the place of the DAC in my chain (Zen -> Magni 3 -> HD6XX KISS), taking the place of a Fulla 2 I purchased a few years back.

    Here are my quick impressions and notes so far (using the Zen as a DAC):
    • I did not expect a DAC swap to make this significant of a difference.
      I did a shoot-out between my Fulla 2 + Magni 3 stack around a few years back (my previous post here on SBAF) and my X5iii, finding that the Fulla+Magni stack didn't seem as crisp and resolving as my X5iii (in terms of instrument separation and imaging) despite being able to slam harder due to the Magni 3 in the chain.

      I occasionally swapped my X5iii in as the source (transport and DAC), taking the X5iii's line out into the Magni 3 and it did help, but unfortunately the X5iii's DAC mode has a severe enough delay that it's basically unusable as a desktop DAC for anything but music.
      The sound is overall way more engaging, where previously with the Fulla 2 in the chain I'll often find myself not focusing in the music.

    • Bass is very full-bodied and solid-sounding. I could more easily hear the bass notes decaying and hitting, where it's more of a "blur" from one bass note to the other with my Fulla 2 in the chain as the DAC.

      This seems to be consistent with my experience demoing other iFi units (iDSD Micro BL into my old MSR7, iDSD Nano BL into my Sony MDR-EX800ST and MH755).
      The bass might easily come off as one-noted for some because of how solid it sounds, but I can't agree with describing the Zen's bass as such.

    • I found a Reddit comment mentioning that the older firmware (v3.20B) before they introduced MQA features has a more natural and less digital/bright sound compared to the newer (v3.30 with MQA / v3.30C with the MQA and the GTO filter) firmware (https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/ho6wcm/ifi_zen_dac_review/fxjl6u2/).
      I've also found this to be the case.

    • The built in headphone amp is lacking, at least for high-impedance cans like the 600 / 650. The bass feels loose, which is also the case on my Q1 with a similar max power level and the reason for my past amp upgrades.
      The balanced output does have more power (320mW iirc) but I don't have a 2.5mm to 4.4mm adapter with me. I'm more interested in testing out how the Zen fares with my IEMs (my MDR-EX800ST in particular).

    • I've had my suspicions for quite a while, but I might just not be a fan of the "VELVET SOUND" sound inherent to most AK4490 DAC implementations.

      Female vocals and mids have always sounded great despite probably not being perfectly neutral (I listen to a lot of J-Pop, mainly music from female anime voice actors, along with the occasional dose of jazz and classical music), but there is muddiness particularly in the bass tones. The treble also sounds a bit stifled to me, giving off a bit of a congested feel.

      Digging up some chat receipts with my friends, I've found at least 3 instances of me dating all the way back to 2017 mentioning how my Fiio Q1 (with its Burr-Brown PCM1702 DAC) straight into my IEMs or MSR7 seems to have better bass, but worse layering when compared to my X5iii.

      Fortunately the Zen seems to be the best of both worlds, at least at first blush for me.

      I think it might be Schiit's magic, or this "VELVET SOUND" architecture, or the combination of both, behind what @Raimei Templar finds to be the Modi 3 doing something magical for the female vocals ("texture" in my own words).

    • I was just about to point out another comment from Reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/dwf1fr/ifi_zen_dac_and_headphone_amp_review/f7jhafv/) but it turned out to be from @Raimei Templar.
      I'll do a direct quote instead:
      "Not surprised the DAC didnt measure all that well, it measured about the same as the other IFI units as they all use basically the same design. Its a hybrid multibit design so there is no way it will ever outperfrom a well implemented Sabre/AKM."
      I thought this is something notable not already mentioned in this thread.

    • Even now, the Magni 3 is quite a great amp. I can't wait until I can get my hands on a 3+ myself but (repeating myself) I'm surprised how much the DAC was "holding" the Magni 3 "back" for me.

    • I don't really have much reference gear other than my Fulla 2 -> Magni 3 and my X5iii. Overall the Zen has a neutral sound leaning slightly warm, but for me that doesn't tell the full story.

      My X5iii can easily be described as such (neutral leaning slightly warm), but the presentation is different enough for me to appreciate.
    Hopefully that wasn't too long of a read. I apologize if I come off as "rambly" in this post but I'm really curious to hear more opinions on the Zen too.
     
  13. ChaChaRealSmooth

    ChaChaRealSmooth SBAF's Mr. Bean

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    Early Impressions as an AIO (later impressions as just a DAC to come):

    Okay, I'm going to admit that this is not the easiest thing for me to review. This is for several reasons, chief among them being that I do not have any reference for cheaper DACs (I don't think the SDAC aged well, but I don't even have it around anymore so...). On top of this, the last AIO I had to review was iFi's own, decidedly not cheap Pro iDSD. So how this compares to, say the Schiit Hel, Fulla 3, or even a Modi 3, I have no idea. And comparing this to a Yggdrasil GS is just not fair for the little Zen DAC. Keep this in mind while reading my impressions on it. Also, keep in mind I'm going to come from the perspective of what I wanted for a device like this; something to use for casual gaming sessions and for listening while work (I can't use the main headphone rig for that; it's too f***ing resolving and engaging).

    Now, before I get into sound, I'm going to go over some legitimate concerns I have:
    • The only way to get any digital signal into Zen DAC is a USB. Considering that most people will plug this into a computer of some sort, this is kind of acceptable, but I'm concerned about the lack of optical, coax, SPDIF; just some other option. However, I also understand that adding these additional inputs costs money, and I think iFi here did their homework; for better or worse I think most people listen through USB.
    • However, this brings me to my second concern. The Zen DAC also pulls power through the USB. The input is a USB 3.0 type B connector (one of these), which I presume is what makes this possible. While this can be circumvented by use of an external DC power port, no such wall wart or cable is included. The manual does say that better performance can be had by plugging in their iFi iPower (and I assume this also means that it might be better with just extra juice through the DC port in general), but nothing is included in the box. The reason why this concerns me so much is that the vast majority of computers nowadays are laptops, and if I was using a laptop I certainly don't want something just draining my laptop battery.
    • The manual recommends using the 4.4mm pentaconn balanced for either using the Zen DAC as an AIO or as an output to an amp. I have no 4.4mm cables nor adapters, so I can't tell you how it sounds in comparison to the SE outputs.
    To address the second point, I did end up using a Schiit Wyrd (this was also to extend the cable out because the one iFi provides is quite short). I will also test with the iPower at some point to see if that does improve things.

    With all this taken into consideration, the Zen DAC isn't bad (those who have been around know what that phrase actually means). I quite enjoy listening to the $130 DAC/Amp combo as a unit through the Wryd.

    Some thoughts, kind of stream of consciousness style, no particular order. Keep in mind that that I used the SE output exclusively (see above):
    • Transients are snappy and more on the square side of things; more X-Sabre Pro-like. Drum hits can cause wince (keep in mind the Wyrd tends to tighten things up, so part of this is the character of the Wyrd).
    • The highs do have a touch of digititus. Through JAR 600, the upper mids and treble can be just a touch strident at louder volumes, as well as being a bit unrefined. However, if HD6500-like stuff is your jam, you might find these traits to be positive.
    • Also, the upper highs might be tipped up. Seems like there's a lot of sparkle and air, but it seems....artificial? Exaggerated maybe? It's not done in an annoying way, and it won't strike you as unnatural, but it's worth mentioning.
    • I find that I have to lower the volume as my listening goes on with this one. I think it definitely causes a touch of fatigue at my normal listening levels. That being said, I don't find it annoying.
    • The headstage isn't necessarily flat; some semblance of verticality, but not much depth. Also, the stage is placed quite far away. If Yggdrasil is like row 7, we're in row 20.
    • Timbre reminds me of the X-Sabre Pro. THIS IS NOT A BAD THING!!! The XSP has very good timbre. The Zen is a bit different though in the fact that everything it plays has a small bit of warmth.
    • Bass is a little bit indistinct and one-note regardless of whether the Truebass is on or not (I think it just functions as a bass boost).
    • Not the greatest in layering or harmonics, but it's a $130 device.
    • It's kind of difficult for me to describe its dynamic performance. I wouldn't call it flat, but it's kind of like a one-trick pony; it really wants to party, rock out with its heart out, and headbang. It kind of gives the classical piano recordings I have sound a bit cartoonish. However, modern pop, hip hop, and certain rock sounds bombastic and groovy through the Zen DAC.
    Overall, I'm actually quite impressed by the Zen DAC. I'm in the market for something to use while working; something that isn't some emotional plankton machine that will grab my attention, but still something good enough that I would still enjoy using it. This Zen DAC fits that bill for me.

    Will later add on impressions with iPower, and also when it's hooked up to external amps.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2020
  14. Claud

    Claud Living the ORFAS dream

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    Cha Cha, don't you have some IEMs? You are missing out on the best the Zen DAC can do without using the 4.4 balanced connection. Do you have an efficient set of comfortable headphones or at least a set of IEMs? Decent cables for IEMs can be cheap but good.
     
  15. ChaChaRealSmooth

    ChaChaRealSmooth SBAF's Mr. Bean

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    This comment is a great leadoff. The SE headphone jack is likely slightly underpowered for any 300 ohm Senns or ZMFs; however, with JAR 600, I found the quality passable. The pot was turned past 12'o'clock, but honestly wasn't bad.

    However, with my JVC HA-FDX1 (the Drop ones), a lot of the problems with treble splash and looseness in the bass disappeared (not completely though). The sound tightens up, and it really does embrace the "rock out" presentation this thing has. Definitely much better fidelity than a phone, and it's very fun to listen to. Staging....well, I never felt any IEM actually staged well; even CA Solaris, which did have some semblance of headstage similar to an open-back headphone ("faked" the stage if you will).

    To answer your question @Claud, the FDX1 is the only IEM I own. I wanted one pair for the times when space is a concern and I need something small for on-the-go listening, but overall I can't stand IEMs. I hate the in-ear feeling and would rather use something on-ear like my ThinkSound On2. Which also wasn't bad through the Zen DAC; just have to be mindful of the treble peak in the On2 being a bit exacerbated by the Zen DAC.

    And yes, I already pointed out in my first post that you may get additional performance out of the balanced connection.
    I have no reason not to believe them, but commenting or speculating about how it might be better is unfair to both iFi and the SBAF community since I can't test it myself.


    Further Impressions with an External Amp + iFi iPower


    Now, about the iFi iPower. The dongle just plugs straight into the back. The presentation gets a little blacker in blackground; overall more "clean." Again, the bit of treble wonkiness disappears, and the bass tightens up. However, you're essentially doubling your purchase price by buying an iPower with the Zen DAC. However, this does solve the problem of it drawing power through USB if you are using it with your laptop. As much as I'd like to tell people to just find a used Schiit Wyrd and use that, the reality of it is that people who carry this in a laptop bag aren't going to be interested in carrying around yet another box and another wall-wart, plus the extra cable for the Wyrd. Again, I really feel like iFi should have included at least some kind of power supply and charged like $150.

    The next step for me was to bypass the internal amp entirely and use an external amp. For that, I used my Asgard 3, which I surmised would be a good match for the Zen DAC because of its mid-centric tonality and slightly rolled highs. My thoughts on the Zen DAC used as just a DAC:
    • The slight "digititus" in the highs will never go away. However, it is tolerable.
    • The Asgard 3 takes some of the "rock on" presentation of the Zen DAC and smooths it out. More refinement to the sound. Don't get me wrong though; the headbanging character never goes away.
    • With Schiit's typical upfront stage, the lack of depth in stage really shows. Interestingly, the stage moves vertically; with Asgard 3, it feels like the whole stage moved down vertically. This also reveals that the Zend DAC's vertical abilities may be a trick of moving the whole stage up vertically. A quick A/B confirmed this.
    • Speaking of stage, the stage is indeed a bit flat.
    • Slightly blacker, but not much more resolving. This is actually a good thing; means the internal amp of Zen DAC is actually not trash.
    • Overall, just much smoother, refined, and a better listen with Asgard 3.
    So is the iFi Zen DAC legit? Well, like I said in my previous post, it's hard for me to say having essentially no reference for what a "good" AIO for around the $100 mark is. However, I definitely don't feel it's bad. It's engaging, without being such a plankton machine that it's hard for me to pay attention to anything else.
     
  16. Claud

    Claud Living the ORFAS dream

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    Zen DAC in its natural habitat at my beach cottage. 021C6559-25B3-438E-A380-646EC9D739DE_1_201_a.jpeg
     
  17. Gazny

    Gazny MOT: ETA Audio

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    Looks very good. Small little thing will be perfect for under my desk. I will have to pick one up. I might even diy it. ifi seems like they too experimented with some capacitor upgrades.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  18. Kouon

    Kouon New

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    @ChaChaRealSmooth are you able to check the firmware version that's on the loaner iFi Zen DAC? If you're on a Mac, the firmware version is visible in System Report, under the USB -> Hardware section.

    On Windows you'll need the USB driver and check it using the software update utility in C:/Program Files/iFi/USB_HD_Audio_Driver/iFiHDUSBAudio_dfuapp.exe.

    In Part Two: MQA LED explained in this page (https://ifi-audio.com/firmware/unified-firmware-for-various-products/) they mention that the MQA filter is always active on the newer version v5.30.

    Edit: if you're on a Linux machine the usb-devices command should also do the trick.

    Just mentioning this because I just finished comparing the my friend's new iFi Zen DAC which is on v5.30 against mine which I downgraded to v5.20B and noticed the differences as noted in my impressions above.
     
  19. ChaChaRealSmooth

    ChaChaRealSmooth SBAF's Mr. Bean

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    Apologies, I did not check. I didn't update it, but it's possible that it was running the firmware you're using or the new one.

    @dncnexus when you receive the unit, do you mind checking? You can also update the firmware if you'd like to try.
     
  20. dncnexus

    dncnexus Friend

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    No problemo, will check once I get it and update.
     

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