New Schiit / Preamps and Power Amp (was Putting the Schiit Signal Up)

Discussion in 'Preamps' started by purr1n, Oct 6, 2016.

  1. TonyNewman

    TonyNewman Validated by Tyll removing Utopia from WOF

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    Just posted this in the Utopia thread on HF. It might be very relevant to folks in the SBAF Freya thread too.

    Got my Freya preamp today and have been experimenting in using it to direct drive the Utopia with a tube complement.

    Results so far are rather good. This is a fresh amp with fresh tubes - and it is already outperforming the Master 9 IMHO. I am getting great detail and dynamics - lots of punch and very little treble fatigue. Once the tubes and amp are settled down I am expecting great things.

    The tubes I am using are JAN NIB TS-RPs from 1945. These are 6C8Gs - similar to 6SN7, but with about a 20% to 30% higher gain. I think this setup might not work with a 6SN7/6F8G tube as the higher gain appears to be necessary. The JFET option does not provide enough output to drive the Utopia (a very easy to drive headphone). The 6C8Gs do the job nicely with the knob at about 9 o'clock. Still some head space left.

    For those unfamiliar with the TS-RP, it is about the best tube in the 6SN7/6F8G/6C8G ... etc family that I have heard, and I have heard most of them at one point or another. NUs would be a close second. I have these also in JAN NIB 6C8Gs and will give those a try later. NUs are a sweeter sounding tube. Less dynamic than the TS-RP, but not by much. Both deliver mid range magic after about 50 hours.

    My own view is that the Russian Tung Sols are best used by throwing them in the bin immediately. Nasty, nasty tubes compared to the TS RP or NU.

    Here's a pic. I need to get more spacers to lift all the tubes up - will do this later. The openings are very tight.

    I think I will not bother at all in using the Freya as a preamp. It makes a fantastic headamp for the Utopia with the right tubes.

    [​IMG]

    The 6C8G tubes I am using (I don't have enough to sell any, so please don't ask).

    [​IMG]
     
  2. Serious

    Serious Inquisitive Frequency Response Plot

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    Doesn't the tube output have a 210 Ohm output impedance? I'm sure that would sound incredibly bassy considering that the Utopia has an impedance hump from 83 Ohm to over 300 Ohm.
     
  3. MisterRogers

    MisterRogers Ethernet Nervosa

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    Yup. To really hear what Utopia can do, output impedance needs to be no more than a few Ohms.
     
  4. TonyNewman

    TonyNewman Validated by Tyll removing Utopia from WOF

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    Damn - I thought I was doing it right.

    The SQ is rather awesome to my ears. The bass is strong with plenty of heft, but not outrageously so. Not much different to when I drive my HE6 from my power amp, or when I drive the Utopia direct from my DAC. Doesn't sound exaggerated or over the top to me.

    I listen at moderate levels - am I at risk of damaging the headphone or preamp in doing this?
     
  5. MisterRogers

    MisterRogers Ethernet Nervosa

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    I can't imagine that you would be (damaging). And I get it still sounds great. Sonically, a higher output impedance into Utopia will give strong bass, but it's the rolled off highs I'm acutely sensitive to - especially combined with my 'old ears'.
     
  6. TonyNewman

    TonyNewman Validated by Tyll removing Utopia from WOF

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    Thanks for the reply and info - appreciated.

    I haven't noticed any treble roll off, but I will do some more testing. Sound is coming across as quite balanced to my ears and with great dynamics, but I need to spend more time with the setup to be sure.
     
  7. gurubhai

    gurubhai Friend

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    6C8G has a plate impedance of 22.5k ohms, about 3 times that of the 6SN7 which itself is too high to push any sort of decent current into the headphone load . Why anyone would chose this particular tube to drive a headphone is honestly beyond me. There is a reason Schiit call this a pre-amp.
     
  8. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Bass is strong because you are running a super high output impedance. This will interact with the Utopia's impedance curve, with the midbass bump. We are talking about couple hundred ohms source impedance with your Freya and tubes. Pleasurable coloured effect maybe with a broad 5-7db bass boost and more syrupy romantic presentation, but probably not what most of us would like.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2017
  9. ButtUglyJeff

    ButtUglyJeff Stunningly beautiful IRL

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    Hi Tony. Do you still have the V281? I would be curious how you think it compares to the Freya.
     
  10. Big D Design

    Big D Design RIP 2021

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    @TonyNewman
    Those tubes look like the Freya is getting an IV. Me like.

    I think the best thing about Freya is that it is it's own entity.... with it's own set of quirks
    **** tubes stay on,,,,, doesn't bother me if that's what's needed
    **** the switch.... well the unit from front to back is so narrow it really doesn't matter and you need clearance above to release tube heat
    **** volume control..... takes some getting used to, it's far superior to an ALPS and low level listening is quite amazing
    The tubes
    The tubes
    The tubes
     
  11. HitmanFluffy

    HitmanFluffy Hoping to see real genitals someday!

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    Wut?
     
  12. TonyNewman

    TonyNewman Validated by Tyll removing Utopia from WOF

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    Sold and gone, but I kinda regret doing that.
     
  13. TonyNewman

    TonyNewman Validated by Tyll removing Utopia from WOF

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    I understand that the theory says it should sound like a bucket of molten ass with a turd crusting - but that isn't what I am hearing.
     
  14. TonyNewman

    TonyNewman Validated by Tyll removing Utopia from WOF

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    After a suggestion from an audio friend I tried using the Freya as a preamp to the M9. I wasn't expecting much to happen - I was very wrong.

    The softness and lack of punch in the M9 disappeared. I am running the M9 at a fixed 90% output and the Freya is doing the volume control - the M9 is now acting as a power amp driving the Utopias. I would not think that I am listening to the same headamp. Transformative. And better than my somewhat whacky running of the Freya as a headamp direct. M9 is now transparent and delivering punch and attack.

    This is one of the most enjoyable parts of this hobby - folks sharing ideas for a good result.

    Headfi rig is now Bricasti->Freya->M9->Utopia.
     
  15. MisterRogers

    MisterRogers Ethernet Nervosa

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    ;-) Yup. Experimenting and learning. The creatures that we are as humans - 'the best we've ever heard' is a very transient state (with this hobby anyway). That reality has a lot to do with the general 'arc' many go through; liking bass -> liking more neutral -> liking staging / separation -> liking tubes. Ok, my bias is showing there.
     
  16. TonyNewman

    TonyNewman Validated by Tyll removing Utopia from WOF

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    If someone had told me 3 years ago that I would be running a tube preamp to feed a headamp running as a fixed gain power amp to drive 4K headphones I would have laughed.
     
  17. MisterRogers

    MisterRogers Ethernet Nervosa

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    Or cried :)
     
  18. yotacowboy

    yotacowboy McRibs Kind of Guy

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    well, there is the fact that using components as their designers intended them to be used usually works better, i.e., preamp to amp (or integrated amp at unity gain), might just work better than an arguably hacked-up signal chain. I still don't understand why one would plug headphones into a preamp's line-level output, because, reactive loads and all.
     
  19. MisterRogers

    MisterRogers Ethernet Nervosa

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    Maybe he's new enough the the hobby to not understand reactive loads / output impedance, etc. People learn differently; cheers for the experimenters - it can be costly, but lessons learned the hard way usually stick.
     
  20. TonyNewman

    TonyNewman Validated by Tyll removing Utopia from WOF

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    Been in the hobby about 4 years, so not that long. I like to play about and try stuff out. Sometimes that ends badly, sometimes it ends well. Either way I tend to learn something, even if it is "don't do that again".

    What I wasn't expecting was the transformation of the M9 when fed from the Freya. It really is like a different amp. Transparent, detailed, dynamic. No hint of the softness that was there when I was running the M9 direct from the Dac.
     

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