NOS DACs

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by brencho, Jan 6, 2016.

  1. brencho

    brencho Friend

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    hey folks, just curious if anyone has knowledge about well implemented NOS dacs (perhaps metrum musette?) and how they'd compare to multibits like the Gungnir Multibit/Yggdrasil or warmer multibits from audio gd etc. Hope my question isn't too misguided or broad, just curious what you'd hear on these two kinds of setups!
     
  2. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    @Hands might be the guy to ask.
     
  3. Abhishek Chowdhary

    Abhishek Chowdhary Friend

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    With limited experience with the new stuff, i found modded Assemblage DAC2 and a modded Adcom gda600 light years ahead of Hugo, Geek out 450, Resonessence Concero. The concero in particular was a joke.
    The mods were necessary for both DACs, without which they may sound blunt and lifeless.
     
  4. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    I have some technical questions I'd like to ask Cees from Metrum regarding the new "Transient" DAC modules. I know the Pavane and new Menuet utilize the FPGA for forward correcting. This is supposed to improve linearity. I think the new modules themselves alone at rated at 16-bits with an accuracy of 1LSB for INL and 0.5LSB for DNL. THD somewhere around 0.007 to 0.008%. If accurate, the modules alone should be a huge step up from the chips used in the Metrum Quad, Octave, and Hex. That would put the new modules somewhere closer to the TDA1541A, but not quite as good if you look at the high grade or cherry picked TDA1541A chips (very, very difficult to find - legit ones, at least).

    Strangely enough, the new Metrum DACs with forward correcting FPGA seem to have higher THD but better linearity than the Musette (without FPGA). How much the higher THD impacts the sound quality, I don't know.

    As mentioned, the Musette does not use the FPGA. It has rated lower THD but should not have the same linearity capabilities.

    Either way, my guess is even the Musette should be a step up from even the Hex in terms of overall accuracy, if reported specs are true. What the simple THD specs don't give you is a look at the spectrum. It's one thing if 2nd order is a bit high and everything else is low. It's another if everything is relatively high. Still doesn't answer how much that really matters, though.

    Personally, I use an Audial Model S Mk2, SPDIF version. USB version technically has lower jitter. I prefer to be able to use different sources and was told the SPDIF version likely had a tone more to my tastes. There's a newer SPDIF version as well. It costs around $2.5K USD depending on currency rate conversions but, IMO, is one of the best non-oversampling DAC implementations I've heard. It blew the Hex and a NOS DAC from Audio-GD out of the water, based on my memory of those.

    Essentially, when you want a NOS DAC, you have limited options. At the bottom end, you're stuck with crappy TDA1543 NOS DACs. They can sound pleasing and euphonic (quite enjoyable if you're OK with that), but in terms of technical accuracy, they really shouldn't cost more than $200-300. We're talking distortion somewhere around 0.4%, maybe 0.04% if you're lucky, and accuracy of maybe 12-13 bits with a single chip. A parallel implementation of the TDA1543 might be interesting and worth more $$$.

    Then you have the stuff from Metrum. The Musette is probably pretty good for the price. The Menuet and Pavane too should be good. I don't recommend the older stuff from Metrum now due to the inaccuracies of the old chips. Not even worth it unless you can get a Quad for $200 or an Octave Mk2 for a few hundred $$$.

    I'd actually love to compare the Menuet and my Model S. I might have considered the Menuet had it been available when I got my Model S. I also have a weird love interest in vintage chips and really like the tone of a properly implemented TDA1541A chip, I've found. And the guy from Audial has a solid reputation on the DIY sites for his TDA1541A implementations and expertise. You might hear a lot of reports about the TDA1541A being polite or mid-centered. With the right implementation, it does not have to be that at all.

    For more information, check out my Audial Model S review. I do cover some thoughts against a good, multibit, oversampling DAC (Theta Gen Va): http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2452.msg68030.html#msg68030

    Here's a long spiel about my thoughts on NOS vs oversampling: http://superbestaudiofriends.org/in...lot-of-dac-talk-on-here.197/page-3#post-11833

    Here are a couple other posts that somewhat touch on NOS comparison thoughts: http://superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/schiit-multibit-bifrost.105/page-25#post-17317

    http://superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/marveys-dac-chart-of-awesomeness.63/#post-3207

    I still recommend oversampling for 99% of people. The new stuff from Schiit is particularly good. For me, it's a matter of non-oversampling fixing this weird long-term listening fatigue I get only with headphones (even with higher sampling rate material that negates the redbook treble roll-off on NOS DACs) AND a preference for the tone, body, and sense of rhythm I get from NOS DACs. Read those threads above for more thoughts. Again, this is a HIGHLY subjective area for me. And I do want to reiterate that I really like the new Schiit DACs.

    Biggest question is...what's your budget?
     
  5. Luckbad

    Luckbad Traded in a unicorn for a Corolla

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    Depending on your budget and capabilities, a new Audio-GD might be up your alley. If you get one with Amanero and have solid hardware going into it, you can experiment with NOS without the commitment.

    Having owned @Hands NOS-1704 a ways after him, I can definitely say that it sounded quite soft and gooey. The Master-11 bests the NOS-1704 in NOS mode if you have good hardware going to it.

    This is what I have set up before the Master-11 that seems to handle NOS mode quite well.
    • A really nice computer I built with very high end components (with some software/service optimizations done manually in Windows 10) using ASIO in JRiver or foobar2000.
    • Gigabyte Z97X Gaming GT motherboard with USB DAC-UP ports and the power disabled on those ports
    • Emotiva CMX-6 for the computer and Master-11
    • AudioQuest NRG-2 power cable into the Master-11
    • AudioQuest NRG-X3 power cable into the PC
    • AudioQuest Cinnamon USB cable (that I sometimes swap for Schiit Pyst or Belkin Gold, but I usually use the AQ cable)
    • UpTone Regen
    As Hands mentioned, higher sample rate music makes a difference. My copy of Quiet Winter Night in 192 kHz sounds stellar in NOS, while 44.1 material can sound a little soft.

    I'll probably ultimately do something like 4x oversampling (default 8x) and -90 dB stopband attenuation (-130 default) since most of my music isn't super high res.
     
  6. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    Yeah, can't necessarily rule out the newer Audio-GD stuff, which you can run in NOS mode. Haven't heard it myself. I'm just not sure I'm sold on Audio-GD products or the 1704 chip itself. Hey, maybe you should send me the Master 11 so I can try it in NOS mode. :p

    Also I just get chubs for vintage multibit chips and want to believe they sound better than the newer chips (save for something like what Schiit uses).
     
  7. Luckbad

    Luckbad Traded in a unicorn for a Corolla

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    In 3-4 months I'm probably heading to Cancun for a week and might send it your way.
     
  8. brencho

    brencho Friend

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    Man, thanks @Hands and @Luckbad for all the great info. You guys are real gentlemen and scholars. I like the idea of trying it out on an AGD dac to test it out until i can some of the well implemented NOS guys. Now gotta reread all that shizz to digest a larger % of it.
     
  9. Luckbad

    Luckbad Traded in a unicorn for a Corolla

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  10. brencho

    brencho Friend

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    Yeah i thought about it! But I have a dac-19 and Gungnir Multibit that I'm testing as it is, so I think it would destroy me! Maybe if I can dig up some extra cash i can do a 3-way comparison :)
     
  11. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    Can't you run the DAC19 in NOS mode?
     
  12. Luckbad

    Luckbad Traded in a unicorn for a Corolla

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    Yep.

    You can put a jumper on IPS0 and IPS1 to get rid of oversampling.

    Jumpers:
    8x Oversampling: IPS0 (Off) + IPS1 (Off)
    4x Oversampling: IPS0 (Off) + IPS1 (On)
    2x Oversampling: IPS0 (On) + IPS1 (Off)
    No Oversampling: IPS0 (On) + IPS1 (On)

    You need really good gear going into it for it to work well.

    Jumper on ATT1 is -90dB stopband attenuation, jumper on ATT0 and Att1 is -50dB stopband attenuation.

    A jumper on PLLEN turns of PLL, DITH turns of Dithering.

    http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/DSP1/DSP1ENspecs.htm
     
  13. Luckbad

    Luckbad Traded in a unicorn for a Corolla

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    Anyone ever heard an MHDT Labs NOS DAC?

    I'm considering picking one up. They have several different options, one of which includes the AD1862N-J chip and looks pretty legit.

    Most interested in the MHDT Atlantis.

    IMG_2251_zpsdhsofsff.jpg
     
  14. Luckbad

    Luckbad Traded in a unicorn for a Corolla

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    I'm gonna bite on the MHDT Atlantis. I've been reading great things about their other NOS dacs and this one uses two AD1862N-J chips.

    It seems the only better chip for NOS technically speaking is the TDA1541A that @Hands loves so much.

    Some good reading if you go down the rabbit hole from here:
    http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/digital/messages/15/153736.html
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2016
  15. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    Some of those numbers look off. I'd refer to the actual datasheets for the chips. Regardless, the AD1862 was the most interesting looking MHDT DAC to me, though I'd be curious to try their other models too. Let us know how it goes!
     
  16. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    I have no experience with it, but I'm intrigued by the DDDAC 1794 NOS dac project. They supposedly have a unique solution to the NOS filter thingamabobber.
     
  17. Luckbad

    Luckbad Traded in a unicorn for a Corolla

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    Created a dedicated thread to my new MHDT Labs Atlantis. NOS R-2R tube DAC using AD1862N-J chips.
     
  18. mtoc

    mtoc SBAF's Resident Shit-Stirrer

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    A guy lends me a NOS DAC (pcm170x, diyed), it's ok. I don't know how to talk about this kind of things, have to hear the Sabre DAC and make a comparison.
     
  19. Luckbad

    Luckbad Traded in a unicorn for a Corolla

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    New NOS dacs coming from Audio-GD:

    New product Preview

    Base on a lot customers advise ,NOS version Master 7, Master 11 and DAC 19 will release in 1st April.

    5 units of each model for pre-order get 5% OFF. (Before order you must learn the NOS DAC characteristic .)
    new DSP software design built in !
    two option NOS modes, support up to 768KHzinput, asynchronous clock , FIFO data process.

    Built in PCM1704UK.

    Please note : Limit by the Amanero USB input, support up to 384KHz now. In Simulation test , it can support up to 768KHz even 1536KHz input . In future if had the new USB interface , users can easy replace in the unit even without soldering.
    Will offer the upgrade for all Audio-gd product users who own the DSP + PCM1704 product in near future!
     
  20. Luckbad

    Luckbad Traded in a unicorn for a Corolla

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    I grabbed a Starting Point Systems DAC 3. It's a non-oversampling R/2R multibit DAC (TDA1543) with a reclocker built in.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/201486642344

    If you're lucky (I was), you can snag one for under $300 because he runs auctions in addition to the Buy It Now link.

    My initial impressions were actually kinda "meh." That said, I left it running while I went off to a couple meetings and things got much better by the time I came back.

    I'll be swapping around between the DAC 3, an MHDT Labs Stockholm, and an Assemblage DAC 2 at work for the next week or so. The Stockholm will go back to a buddy in Washington, but at least one of the others will stick around for a while since my second Atlantis is out on a loaner to a few folks.

    DAC 3

    A very innovative USB DAC blending modern tech with renowned TDA1543 true multibit Philips® chip for that pure vintage "analog" listening experience...

    And with its very innovative on-board, always active, jitter-killing reclocker, it will sound equally good from all your sources: USB or SPDIF (coaxial and optical).

    Problematic, highly jittery sources, like set-top boxes, or wireless audio transmitters (airplay and the like) will now sound just like any well-designed high end transport. And yes, USB too !!!

    It fits in the palm of your hand, and can be battery operated, so you can take it with you and have your friends enjoy it too !

    TDA1543 + Reclocker x (USB or DIR9001) + Battery power = GREAT SOUND !

    Why did you design this DAC ?
    Nobody can be "told" what a good DAC is, you have to hear it for yourself...

    After searching myself for the "perfect" DAC, I stumbled on forum discussions about how these "vintage" DACs from Phillips® sounded so good.

    I was getting a little skeptical about those "natural" and "analog" statements for the sound of those converters, but as so many people seemed to make converging descriptions, I was left with the feeling it was not just a legend...

    I decided I had to build one, and try for myself !

    As the result was more than surprising... I told myself : wow, I got to show that to my friends...
    And what most of my friends said : "can you build one for me ?"
    Call that a market study...

    Why do audiophiles do not like the sound of current oversampling DACs ?
    Oversampling DACs are textbook correct, right ? So they should sound perfect, no ? Well ...

    While it is true that oversampling DACs are textbook correct, if you make the wrong assumptions about the human hearing system, you may end up making mistakes, even if you do the math right !

    Let me give you a simple example : it is generally assumed we hear the spectrum of sounds, but can't hear the phase.

    Now try "binaural beats" on Google and listen for yourself. These clearly show the phase information IS sensed, AND remains present far inside the brain.

    So maybe the spectrum-only approach to DAC design is not telling the whole story...

    Traditional non-oversampling DACs from the past did not make any assumptions about hearing mechanisms, they just tried to replicate in analog what you fed them digitally as closely as possible...

    What are the main features of this DAC ?
    And what are the main goals of its design ?
    • Extract the pure performance of the last built non-oversampling true 16-bit TDA1543 DAC from Philips®
    • Provide equally high sound quality on either USB or SPDIF sources thanks to a very innovative reclocker
    • USB, Optical & Coaxial inputs (a simple press on the button switches them in round-robin fashion)
    • NO DRIVER Install necessary: uses the stock drivers of your OS: Linux, MacOS, and yes, Windows too (all flavors, XP, Win7/8...) just plug on USB and it's your default sound output !
    • Frequency indicator (works the same on all inputs) always tells you the REAL sample rate of your source (your computer/transport can't lie to you)
    • DIR9001 96 kHz SPDIF Receiver
    • Supports sampling frequencies from 28kHz to 108kHz (continuous range, including non-standard frequencies)
    • TDA1543 16-bit DAC - the original from Philips®
    • Passive I/V conversion
    • No Op-Amp - direct output with 2Vpp (will drive any power amp well)
    • Huuuge capacitors on the output path provides sub-Hertz cutoff frequency (<0.3Hz on a 10kOhms input)
    • Three Stage power supply regulation (for a super low background noise level)
    • Separate voltage regulator for the DAC and the Digital SPDIF receiver (same reason as above)
    • Battery-powered with dual 9V NiMH batteries
    • Smart battery charger on-board (quickly charges the batteries when depleted, keeps them charged at low current when idle)
    • Will Directly drive any power amplifier or preamp
    • Easy to carry around and make it listen to yours friends
    • 2+ hours of listening on the batteries, if used standalone with spdif source
    Why is the cost so low if it sounds so good ?
    Simple is beautiful...Simple is beautiful...

    The less you process sound, by adding unnecessary stages, the more transparent result you get.
    A minimalist non-oversampling DAC will achieve that goal, giving you great sound, and low cost too.​
     

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