Objective vs. Subjective for the Umpteenth time

Discussion in 'Tales from the Bully Pulpit' started by GanGreinke, Aug 16, 2016.

  1. landroni

    landroni Friend

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    Fair enough, I guess I should have taken a step back when getting back from my trip. (redacting my earlier post)

    The 'magic fucking rocks' bit recalls me of the Bricasti M1 Gold:
    http://www.bricasti.com/m1_gold.html

    It comes complete with golden feet...
     
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  2. Madaboutaudio

    Madaboutaudio Friend

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    I won't mind a gold finish yggdrasil that's fo sho!
     
  3. T.Rainman

    T.Rainman Acquaintance

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    The things you guys worry about never ceases to amaze me.
    Who cares what other people think ?
    Get a life ... listen to some music and enjoy what you think you hear.
     
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  4. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    I suppose I had better settle the controversy I created!

    I've certainly offended a few audiophiles in my time, and I probably haven't finished yet, even though I mostly leave aside these topics these days.

    My point of view, in a nutshell, is that I don't see this stuff as being objective or subjective: I see it as being sane or insane.

    But I acknowledge, who indeed cares what I think. They should care what they think. And try, very hard, in this crazy audio world, to stay sane.

    :bird:
     
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  5. Cspirou

    Cspirou They call me Sparky

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    Got into a mini argument on Massdrop about Class A vs Class AB with objective types. Here’s a few gems I wanted to share, almost none a response to what I said and just seem to be pulled out of a bag of objectivist talking points. All paraphrased

    +recordings use 1000s of IC chips anyway (should I not use a clean TV if your camera had a dirty lens. BTW, never said ICs were bad. I’m sure the straw man felt good to take down)

    +We can measure EVERYTHING audible (Wow that’s arrogant. I’m sure gravitational waves didn’t exist until last year either.)

    +these are pieces of equipment, not paintings (I said listening to my gear was important. I made zero statements about wanting colored sound. Or about physical appearance or mention tubes.)

    +I’ve heard differences that aren’t physically possible. Therefore it must be placebo because physics is not wrong (um, what?)

    +so you agree Class A is a waste of power and irrelevant (in response to me saying crossover distortion in Class AB can have minimal audibility)

    +my Class A amp sounds better but I know it’s not better (damn this guy loves placebos)
     
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  6. DigMe

    DigMe Needs a baby bottle

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    It doesn't have to be this way, bro. Self-harm is not the answer.
     
  7. Cspirou

    Cspirou They call me Sparky

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    It doesn’t start like that. Someone asked a question and I engaged for educational reasons. Little did I know that they didn’t want an answer but a reason to dook it out.
     
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  8. DigMe

    DigMe Needs a baby bottle

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    Dook it out.. that's fitting.
     
  9. GanGreinke

    GanGreinke Almost "Made"

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    Some people will take any opportunity to plop out a turd.
     
  10. Ringingears

    Ringingears Honorary BFF

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    Too many people have no interest in educating themselves anymore. They have opinions instead, which they seem to think are just as valid. Intellectual discussion is dead. Arguing with people about ones opinions seems to be the way most people prefer to "communicate". Seems seldom that people are interested in exchanging knowledge or new information, at least real ones, or understand that we still don't understand many things, including auditory processing. We seem to be in an era of sports mentality. Pick a team and stick with it no matter what. That's what I hope we can avoid for the most part here.

    I will now return to smart ass mode.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2017
  11. atomicbob

    atomicbob dScope Yoda

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    Can be applied to almost every topic today, from politics to "science". Very frustrating to watch the intellectual demise in progress, with everything reduced to winners and losers. Feh.
     
  12. GanGreinke

    GanGreinke Almost "Made"

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    That is so true. It seems like nowadays a lot of people would rather see the world around them collapse and be able to say "see, I was right" rather than make a change to prevent the collapse.

    Being pretty young, I've been wondering if it's always been this way and people just didn't have the outlet to express their views in the past. With the accessibility of the internet and social media, every person has an open forum to express his or her views; it also means each person has an outlet to express his or her ignorance.
     
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  13. DigMe

    DigMe Needs a baby bottle

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    People have always been nasty to each other. After all there was a time when we were willing to kill by the hundreds of thousands and lynch our fellow countrymen over deeply-held disagreements. The internet is definitely a factor in the way that is currently done though. I think there is a greater diversity of divisiveness now though. Now it seems as though every issue is a mass argument. It's not just arguing about the leader of the country anymore. Thousands of people are free to participate in arguing about the leader of the local Boy Scout troop or the color of cups at a coffee shop. Everything must be argued about on a mass scale. And the argument MUST BE WON!!!!
     
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  14. GoodEnoughGear

    GoodEnoughGear Evil Dr. Shultz‎

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    The internet lends itself to bluster and noise. Part of me believes that the actual balance hasn't changed, but that democracy allows idiocy to get the upper hand.
     
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  15. atomicbob

    atomicbob dScope Yoda

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    And so it goes.
    Tubes vs transistors.
    SDAC vs ODAC.
    MCTH vs O2.
    Objectivists vs Subjectivists.
    One of the reasons I hang here is because the denizens are more open to entertain a grey area between the last two, that is quite possibly educational and enlightening. Elsewhere it is as several of you point out, an exercise in futility such as experienced by @Cspirou
     
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  16. Luckbad

    Luckbad Traded in a unicorn for a Corolla

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    I grew up half without the internet, then half with it. Cell phones weren't really a thing until high school, and free texting wasn't a thing until college.

    I got really into the internet. I could be an expert on anything that someone was willing to document online (accurately or otherwise). I could engage in conversation and argument with people about anything and everything. And so I did.

    Then I realized that the vast majority of what goes on in the various fora simply upsets me. Facebook makes me like people I know in real life less for the idiocy they link and agree with. Twitter points out how seemingly intelligent people are senseless fools. Head-Fi reinforces the lemming theory to a disturbing degree.

    So my solution is to keep away. I can't even go to Facebook on my home network anymore and I'm happier for it. My coworkers could be Trump supporters and I wouldn't even know it. I still have a Twitter account, but I never touch it. I still visit Head-Fi for the For Sale forums, but that's about it.

    Thought interrupted. Something something objective and subjective.
     
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  17. Kattefjaes

    Kattefjaes Mostly Harmless

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    Better yet, most of the people with really firm opinions and tastes on a particular topic are open and self-consistent, so you can triangulate what they say against what you know they enjoy and hate- so even if you don't have the same tastes, it provides useful data points. I bloody love that.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2017
  18. Cspirou

    Cspirou They call me Sparky

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    I guess what irks me is that they claim the mantle of science but they don’t really seem to get what science is about. Science involves curiosity and exploration into the unknown. They seem completely incurious and have determined that we already know everything.

    But worst of all is that it doesn’t serve to advance audio but take it down. As much as they hate on tubes and love measurements, I NEVER see them post measurements of tube amps in their rants. Literally the only place I’ve seen measurements of tube amps is at SBAF, where people actually try to figure out what’s going on and advance the state of audio.
     
  19. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    Reminds me of someone I knew who could think of reasons not to have any medical treatment for the things she suffered, or thought she suffered, from. The question for her: Which would you rather be, healthy? Or right?

    People will sacrifice anything, from health to happiness, as long as they can go on being right. And yes, been there, done that.

    I have to admit that I've thrown myself wholeheartedly into many internet audio arguments, and mainly on what might be called the objective side. What I learnt mostly was the meaning of the term straw man. When those arguments get hot, people don't even listen to each other: they invent what they think the other guy said and then argue about it.

    I have given up on the terms objective and subjective. I think they were always wrongly used anyway. I do keep the word rational handy, though, and I'm glad that SBAF has able, qualified people who can and do, where necessary, point out actually,-not-in-this-universe.
     
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  20. Dino

    Dino Friend

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    I was looking at the URL/title of this thread and an idea just popped into my head.

    If someone you know gets a new system/component, have you ever gone over to their house and excitedly said:

    1)"Let me see the spec sheet on this! That's all I'm really interested in."?

    2) Or after taking a quick look at the new stuff, "Let's listen to this!"? And after listening for quite a while "Let me see the spec sheet." More out of curiosity and as a bit of an afterthought because you've already made up your mind whether you like what you heard?

    I am used to the second scenario.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2017
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