Otomon Labs - WARNING

As someone who grew up in a different continent, has worked with folks from all inhabited continents for a long time, and spent quite a bit of time in different countries for life, business, and pleasure: sure, cross-cultural communication can be tricky, but there are honest and dishonest folks everywhere I've been. In @rhythmdevils situation, I'd just use PayPal buyer's protection and be done with it. Life is too short to try to debug flaky gear. In contrast, I've bought quite a bit of new and used equipment from SBAFers and from small equipment makers, tubes and solid state, not rarely in the same price range as the item under discussion, and I've never had a bad experience, even when the items were shipped across the world. So maybe I was lucky, but more likely the makers and sellers are careful, honest, focused on building and selling reliable equipment. I'd not possibly accept an amp with a metal case where I'm asked to lift the ground for it to function properly. Sure, I know it's possible to isolate the case, but we are talking about X00 volt rails and how much trust is owed an equipment maker who does not seem to follow best reliability and safety practices? Send it back.

 

This reads like a modern-day SinglePower.

 

Thanks for the warning Witney, I had read that same hifiheaven thread a few months back.

Real shame, I quite liked the look of some of the work, specifically the dacs with the board @yotacowboy Loaned to a few members.

 

[aside]Reminds me, got that DAC back from the local hifi repair shop with a clean bill of health, if anyone wants to jump back on the loaner. I've been tempted to grab some different opamps, but supply chain shit is still outrageous. [/aside]

 

I’m sorry I upset so many people. Including you @Merrick , that was kind of a low blow from you but I love you and think very highly of you and that hasn’t changed.

I had no idea this thread would be so controversial.

In thinking back I kind of wish I proposed the idea of Ken paying @uniqusrname to fix the amp, because that would be the best solution and it was what I was planning on asking him for. But it became very obvious to me where my conversation with Ken was going - he wasn’t gong to do right and fix the amp, but send me down troubleshooting paths that would cost him nothing, take a lot of my time and energy and not fix the issue (and possibly electrocute me). The amp is clearly broken or improperly designed. And he was going to have to pay a local to fix it to do the right thing. Or pay for shipping back and forth to Japan to fix it of course. Which it became clear he was not going to do. But just make endless excuses. I mean, for example, the amp obviously does not have a TKD post on it as he said, I know what a good pot feels like, I’ve had many amps with TKD pots installed, this is a cheap POS. He was just lying about it blatantly.

If I was too hasty with my response to him I apologize, it may be because I’ve been dealing with unexplainable noise in my system for months now with amps having noise that makes absolutely no sense and isn’t even fixed by a PS Audio P15 power regenerator. I’m just at the end of my ability to deal with mystery problems with gear.

I genuinely love music and music reproduction and this hobby. I really care - probably too much, and I felt obligated to post this and make Ken’s shabby work and customer relations publicly google-able. It took a lot of time to write this post and I never do anything out of malice or anger, I truly did this out of love for this hobby and this community.

But I’m sorry I have upset so many of you and wish we could be at peace.

Whitney

 

I wish you could be at peace. And I think all here who care about you probably feel the same way, though I don't pretend to speak for any but myself.

 

Feeling sorry for RD with himself handling all these misfortunes and hassles after a big investment made with a high hope.

And I sincerely suggest RD do not take members' responses "controversial". You (prol) didn't upset people either. They were all suggesting different views including some suggestions they could think of. I think it's rather a benefit of being a member in such a supportive community.

However, I do appreciate RD started this thread. Beyond a certain point of journey in this hobby, many people (who want to sidestep DIY routes) at least once consider to commission builders to build an amp. And RD's case with Otomon indicates that, no matter which side commit more faults/miscommunications, there should be more considerations in every stage of transaction -- even including pre-ordering.

He described his case well (I think he is very good at telling a story) although readers should always de-bias statements on their ends. Whatever, doubtlessly very helpful resource for the whole community.

That said, I'd do the followings if I meet the same issues with my commissioned amp:

1. Try Ken's suggestion to lift ground. I really think this can be correlated with many other seemingly irrelevant issues. Also, I do think following his suggestion may have extra benefits to signal him that I am respecting what he says -- an important ingredient for smoother communications.
2. (Once #1 is done and if issues still remain) Prepare objective evidences for each issue (buzz, imbalance, gain-switching sound, gain level). These issues are all measurable with relatively affordable devices with dummy loads/resistors.
   • For example, I don't think "I'm hearing imbalance" is more effective to convince the builder than "My digital oscilloscope detects X db difference, see the attached reports for details".
3. Try to understand potentials of the commissioned amp if all the issues are resolved. For example, even with unbearably high gain levels, we can try out alternative configurations: passive preamp, passive attenuators, or even digital attenuations are good for quick tests. This can be insightful to determine between asking refund immediately or keeping troubleshooting anyways.

PS. I'm slightly doubting potentiometer quality is the root cause of imbalance. My general experience with cheap or poor pots is channel balances are good~ok with zero attenuation but worsen quickly with medium attenuation (-20db or lower). If imbalances don't go away with knob adjustments, I may suspect there's something going on in the circuit stages. Of course potentiometer might be defective or broken. But I may not rule out other possibilities. And this may be another reason to follow lifting ground suggestion at first.

 

I think the issue is ultimately thus:

Zampo can crank out amp after amp and ship across the world and I've yet to see a single complaint about noise/damage in shipping/shitty parts/crap design/potentially lethal/whatever. At $400 (when I bought my SW51), I got craftsmanship and quality.

Ken's amps cost close to 10X as much. If I spent that and got what Ken apparently is ok with shipping out and, the response to problems was anything other than "I will do whatever it takes to make this right", I would be livid.

 

@rhythmdevils maybe check out this guy? I don't have any particular reason to do so but I just get good vibes, if I lived in the states I would give it serious thought.

https://simplepleasuretubeamps.com/2021/11/15/end-game-dht-headphone-amp/

This one is super expensive but there doubtless less extreme configurations.

 

RD - your mind is probably made up already but if not, I 100% agree. I wouldn't accept this amp either and would have returned the amp if the builder didn't disclose XYZ potential issues due to ABC reasons.

Could say more, but I think this already overshadows any other semi coherent idea I can piece together at this hour.

edit: coherent now.
Conclusion is still "not safe, return item". All of the below is only theoretically speaking, not RD or this manufacturer in particular.
- Yes, preliminary troubleshooting could have been attempted, but this is also very unlikely to fix all 4 issues and if the person troubleshooting is not familiar with amp design + circuit safety, this can (potentially) be flat out dangerous as mentioned above.
- Yes, in retrospect, communication can always be better by both parties, but it's kind of moot when the product has this many issues.
- Benefit of doubt - International shipping can be rough and relatively small and heavy packages seem to compound the issues. No matter how good of a job the designer, layout, builder, and/or packaging engineer is/are at any company. A large corporation could probably set up contingency plans for this, but what is probably a 1 man shop doing this as a hobby in their free time may not have the capacity to do so and it becomes more "case by case". Add potential language barriers and in my own opinion, shouldn't theoretically be applicable but usually ends up being applicable anyways cultural barriers, and other fudge factors that always seem to exist - not easy for either side.

Personally - heard of this amp mfg once before, but won't be a future customer now.

 

Absolutely this. When such a story gets told, and text is quoted, some people are going to say maybe that's not what he meant, and some people are going to try to see something better in someone you may be fed up with already. They disagree. You can disagree with their disagreement. One thing is sure: you were there at the time, and we weren't.

I am wired to take the buyer's side. Just the way I am. Consumer rights matter to me, and I don't like to see someone getting trash whether its $3 or $3,000. I'm not an idiot, I've worked in shops, and with public customers, and surely I know that the customer is not always right, but still... I start with that assumption. Especially when I know the customer.

If, for me, there's another side to this story, it is that I doubt the wisdom of getting into such a deal, especially when separated by continents, oceans, and customs barriers. But you did your research and it was your decision. And you bought an amplifier. And it should be usable. Even if it doesn't live up to the seller's hype, it should be safe and serviceable.

Disappointment might always have been a risk: unusable should not have been.

 

On reflection I replied without sufficient empathy and I apologize. I am livid on your behalf, and on behalf of everyone who’s been taken for a ride by this supposed “Japanese master amp builder.”

 

Btw, the fact that ground is not used in Japan is not an excuse. When you're selling equipment at his prices to customers around the world, you can afford to drive a metal rod 6 feet deep out back and see what happens when you ground your amps to it.

And by "afford" I mean "don't be lazy". Piece of rebar is $10. A big hammer is like $50.

 

If I was in RD shoes I would make up my mind whether supposing it can get fixed, I would be able to enjoy it or whether there is a bad feeling linked to the whole experience which gets my blood pressure up every time I look at it. If the latter was the case I would send it back.
It is always sad when a project one has spent effort, time and enthusiasm on does not work out.
I hope you have more luck in the future RD.

 

These BIG Audio L are just so gut wrenching.
Even if its fixed, the moment is unforgettable.

One time I bought a vintage cd player and US or Canadian customs dropped the Fk out of it and it arrived broken. Almost ended my audio career right there. luckily months or a year later I found a similar one for pennies.

Don't give up RD!

 

Around here, "ground" is often connected to the water meter in the house. That might be an even better location rather than running lamp cord out to a post outside.

 

A true earth ground is far superior. You do not run a lamp cord to a post .... you use a copper ground wire to the ground rod. My ground rod is a ten footer.The wire then goes to the breaker box. This is the standard electrical code in the area where I Iive.

 

After this is hopefully resolved with all your buckeroos back in you pocket, why not try one of Amspandsounds monstrosities like the Nautilus, Red October or Bigger Ben?
I assume it crossed your mind and your researched in that direction, so I am genuinely curious since all of these seem to be more than powerful enough.

 

@rhythmdevils - I'm pretty sure it is public knowledge that your health really limits your ability to do more transactions than you specifically know you can handle. I am/was very functional, but I'm waning down quickly.

 

I'm no electrician (well, just a dumb amateur with a tool box!*) but I believe there are safety reasons for tying the water supply to the electrical earth. ???

British houses, with internal copper piping, always have such a connection. Comes with a tag warning not to remove.

(I used to earth my hifi to a gas fitting. Also copper/iron piping. It worked fine to remove a slight buzz. I wondered if sparks inside the pipe could be a thing. But I don't think so. And even gas needs there to be air also for burning.)



*I'm still alive.