Ozarktom's Credentials

Discussion in 'How to Win Friends and Influence People' started by Ozarktom, Feb 19, 2019.

  1. Ozarktom

    Ozarktom Nobsound Fever

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    That is too bad since it beats the Nobsound and Saga by a big margin.
     
  2. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    What about the Sys, OL, or Big Knob (passive)? Did you compare against the Saga in active or passive?

    Can you open up the case to see what part number for the pot? Kind of curious and wondering about the impedances in and out.

    Finally, from what source and what amp?

    Passive pots or resistors shouldn't be adding soundstage unless it's imagined.
     
  3. Ozarktom

    Ozarktom Nobsound Fever

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    Sorry puttIn, I never open these boxes. I am always scared I will mess things up. The Saga was a loaner, I tried both passive and active on the Saga.

    My speakers are full range Alnicos driven by the new Burson Bang amp. That amp beats every Class D amp I have ever owned or heard. I used the Sony HAP-Z1es Music server as my source. Quality of wiring makes a difference in sound.
     
  4. Ozarktom

    Ozarktom Nobsound Fever

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    The volume pot on the HK passive is the Chinese knock off of the Danish Dact volume pot. That one is one of the highest rated if you do a search on the net. People that has compared the two says it is very close in SQ. You can buy an original on Ebay. Not too bad at a price of $350, or little more than the Saga.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Passive-pr...h=item2f12246e86:g:HtsAAOSwt5dcZbNk:rk:4:pf:0

    You can buy the Chinese knock-offs on Ebay fora little more than $10 and build your own passive.

    \
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2019
  5. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Yeah. I know about the DACT and owned one before. I don't care for it. Personal preferences. I don't give a shit if the Internets says they are the highest rated. The Internets also said the Chord Hugo competes with the best desktop DACs and that these Audio Nirvana 12" AlNiCo "full-rangers" were totally awesome. Some dude here who actually bought these drivers supposedly secretly returned them and is too embarrassed to report back because everyone warned him they were going to sound like shit.

    The DACT is nothing special. The Danish people who make the good shit are Scan-Speak. Not overpriced cheesy steppers like DACT. I'm sure the sound is the same from the Chinese clone. I think @Hands has one and really likes it.

    So when you said the Saga had better stage and less detail, was this in comparison to active mode or passive mode, or it sounded this way in both modes? Just trying to clarify. Not doubting what you hear as there are certain things that I hear too with the Saga even compared to dirt cheap pots.

    Any decent amp blows away any Class D I've ever heard. Any class AB pro amp from Crown, QSC, or Crest blows any every class D amp I've ever heard. Not impressed. Now if you said your Burson Bang sounded better in the mids and highs against the Nobsound JLH 1969 (w/ one simple mod), that might raise some interest.

    I have AlNiCo drivers too. I don't use them anymore. The magnets need to be recharged. AlNiCo doesn't impress me. It's good for overdriving from guitar amps though, and dumbass audiophiles willing to pay moar to join the AlNiCo club.

    Yeah. Yeah. Cables make a difference. I'd rather put the few hundred in cables toward better speakers or better drivers and repurpose pulled plenum CAT5 slated for the garbage into speaker cables.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2019
  6. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    I got some of those mini Chinese steppers, yeah. Cheap, fit anywhere, have a sort of “solid,” clean, and untainted sound to them but can sound hard if your amp is on the bright side. Nice to have great channel matching. Can be difficult finding the perfect volume level.

    I’d definitely get some of those brand name, top tier, one billionty stepped steppers if they weren’t humongous and expensive.
     
  7. Ozarktom

    Ozarktom Nobsound Fever

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    Gee, just being honest here.

    I could lie and say the Saga was much better. But even the Saga owner said the Nobsound had more detail.

    My previous speakers were the $35K Zellaton Emotions, but I had to sell them to pay off some doctor bills. Darn!
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2019
  8. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Again, I am not doubting what you hear. Which mode was compared to which? The Saga active and passive sound very different. They are essentially two different preamps. You said you compared the ChiFi passive preamp to the Saga and found it to be more detailed but less expansive in stage. Which mode did you compare it to? What you describe sounds like the active mode. How did the passive preamp compare to Saga in passive mode? Did you roll tubes in active mode?

    The fact that you cannot answer a simple question or make things clear from the onset tells me that you are hiding something (like you didn't really try the passive mode or roll a few tubes, and are now trying to think of more words in an attempt to burnish your audiophile creds here).


    I'm sorry to hear that. I can empathize as I made five ER room visits last year and was hospitalized twice, the second time for seven days. Not cheap.

    Here are my JBL 4698B and Nobsound JLH 69 amp. $1000 total. They sound better than $35K Zellaton Emotions. I laugh at audiophiles who describe speed and big dynamics on small drivers in small skinny enclosure speakers which are so inefficient that they require 1000W power amps.

    IMG_20190220_081140.jpg

    --

    Again, I am not doubting what you hear. In many instances, a passive, even a cheap one, is better than any active preamp. What I am trying to ascertain is more specifics. Did you try tube rolling for active mode? How did the passive preamp fare (in detail, soundstage, whatever words you can use) against Saga in passive mode? I have my own opinions which might not be different from yours, but I want to hear you say it in a clear and cogent manner without lame appeals to authority, e.g. references to your Burson amp (not impressed), citation of DACT stepper as most respected on the Internets (don't care), lower-end Zellaton speakers (again not impressed), etc.

    Remember, this audiophile community is a lot more demanding from its members. There's no need not to be succinct, but rigor in comparison, ability to convey sonic characteristics and specificity (what was compared to what under what circumstances) are required.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2019
  9. Ozarktom

    Ozarktom Nobsound Fever

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    I am not trying to hide anything. I tried the active mode but some large crackimg noise cam through, so I could only use it in passive. The Saga was shipped 1500 miles away so UPS might have damaged it. The owner has to ship the unit back to the company for repair. He shipped the unit with the popular tube that everyone here says is the best. I don't remember what it was.

    How can a preamp be passive with tubes? All the better passives out there has no tubes. Goldpoint is one of the better passives and has no tubes. You think the Saga is better than the Goldpoint?

    JBL's are great for concert loudness, but I do not listen at concert levels. That is a good was to lose your hearing. Zellatons win many best of Miunch awrds as the best speakers at the show. All the big names are there. I listen for detail, clarity, and speed, not loudness. There are two camps, concert level or detail level. I drove the Zellatons even with a 2 watt set amp and they sounded great.

    As for credentials, I was a high end dealer for 15 years. I sold Acoustat, Rowland, Classe, Bedini, David Berning, Counterppnt, KEF, B&W, Celestion, Spendor, just to name a few. I sold Jason's Sumo Nine which was better many of the over-priced amps that were out there. I wish I had kept one of those Sumo Nine or Gold's.

    But the Nobsound has no remote. Many would rather have the Saga because of the remote.
     
  10. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    The Saga has a passive mode. You press a button and only the relay switched resistor ladder is in the circuit. The tube circuit is switched out. This allows one to compare a passive resistor ladder circuit to the active tube circuit. I would agree that the tube circuit is less resolving but has a deeper soundstage. For all of my sources, I think the Saga passive mode sounds better than active. And FWIW, I think a cheap OL, Sys, Big Knob sounds better than the Saga passive. Probably a result of too many switches in the signal path. I didn't think the passive mode in Saga had deeper soundstage.

    • So NOW you admit the unit you tried was possibly damaged? WTH?
    • I am not aware of a "popular tube" that everyone on SBAF says is the best. I probably have at least one of every kind of 6SN7 ever made with the exception of the warmer or bloomier EU / UK brands. The tube I use will be different depending upon the rest of the system.
    This is a common misperception for JBL. It depends upon which JBL line, and even within the Cabaret line (introduced in the late seventies and ended in the late 80s), only two models were suitable for audiophile home use. I'd agree with your assessment if you were talking about the later pro-oriented JBL SRX series or modern stuff. But even with the modern stuff, the 4367 is a standout and even "better" (more audiophile) than their prior K2 series from a few years ago.

    The large paper drivers / compression drives provide for the following:
    1. Low distortion (one aspect of clarity) and sense of ease at any SPL. Related to this is mid-bass quality. It's all about bass quality.
    2. Physicality at any SPL, even at 60db SPL, whether this be from the footsteps and door creak in MJ's Thriller or triangle work on a Peter Gabriel track.
    3. Use of SET amps - the most simple circuits possible and arguably the most resolving, fastest, and clearest sounding amp topology around (with the huge downside of low power)
    4. Lack of cabinet coloration. The huge cabinets do more to mitigate the boxy sound of cabinets. I don't care if its heroic construction like Magico (their stuff sounds like ass anyway). The only way to get better is infinite baffle (to outside of the house), open baffle (which I believe the $100k Zellaton Reference speakers implement a variation of with their kind-of U-frame approach.
    5. Fast transients or "speed". The E155 18" woofer in a big cab is flat-out the best bass I have ever heard (tightness, articulation, impact, liveliness). There is a strong correlation between efficient drivers and speed. Also, no dynamic driver beats compression drivers in speed.
    6. Naturally low resonant frequency - requires no need to trade extension at the expense of efficiency.
    7. Superior microdynamics and macrodynamics. There are a total of 4 reactive parts in the crossover. The results in an engaging and lively sound in that the drivers respond to small signals. There are no power-robbing components. The efficiency and size of the drivers allow better thermals, which can result in compression (this is a very real effect).
    8. And finally high SPL capability. I don't know what you mean at concert levels, but I'll listen to classical music hitting 100db+ peaks.
    The 4698b falls behind in these areas:
    1. Not the fastest decay for the mids. Modern metal drivers have faster decay but at the expense of extremely poor behavior up high. This requires complex crossovers, or if complex crossovers are not used, results in an odd-timbre. Zellaton has addressed this quite well by going with composite material sandwich drivers.
    2. Uneven frequency response in the highs (horn loaded drivers will always have dips in a few spots) and mids (the woofer has no crossover, so some of the cone break-up bleeds into the mids).
    3. Ultimate resolution. The JBL 4698 will scale up with SET amps (I own x2 SET amps, but have the JLH69 in place to show people that great sound can be had for cheap), but good wide-banders such as the Fostex Sigma, Lowthers, AER, Voxactiv are more resolving of fine details.
    [​IMG]

    So do I and everyone else here, and their grandmothers. But add low distortion, sense of ease, and on occasion high SPL. I would prefer that a speaker be able to play at movie theatre levels with the same sense of ease.

    Which 2W SET? What transformers? The Zellaton Emotions are 4-ohms nominal and designed to work best a few feet from the wall, which indicates a good amount of baffle-step compensation (given the narrow baffle), which means low-moderate efficiency. I'm sure the mids and highs were wonderful, but I bet the bass was bloated and soft - not that a single 7" driver can reproduce proper bass anyway.

    Given your esteemed credentials as a high-end dealer for 15 years, you are surprisingly unknowledgeable, e.g. comparing passive to active preamps, not fully grasping when active preamps might be or not be applicable, not understanding the feature set of products you've commented on, not understanding the true benefits (not necessarily SPL) of larger drivers or lack of experience with such.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2019
  11. Ozarktom

    Ozarktom Nobsound Fever

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    Sounds llike you know it all.
     
  12. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    I don't. I'm just more open than you to hearing and considering different kinds of stuff, making my own stuff, getting my hands dirty, and knowing how things work rather than wasting my money on audio jewelry. Oh, I've been there with the audio jewelry when I didn't know any better. But getting your hands dirty (not the same as buying and cycling through a lot of gear) goes a huge huge way to knowing a lot. Other than digital, sound reproduction really has not really progressed much in the past 90 years. This is especially true for transducers and just slightly less so for amplification.

    As far as my credentials: I never sold audio gear. I was never a dealer. I am basically a random dude who bleeds when cut, like everyone else.

    --

    What I don't do is offer impressions on gear which I know is damaged or might be damaged. If damage is suspected I will investigate and state so. I also don't make lame appeals to authority to establish my credibility.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2019
  13. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Moved some things here.

    Most probably already know @Ozarktom likes the Nobosound whatever pre-amp over the Saga. Kool.

    I mean, that's why I gave him the custom title he has.

    Most probably don't care much that @Ozarktom is a Hi-Fi audio sales veteran in a thread dedicated to passive pre-amps. Or his speaker sampling repertoire. Maybe the intro thread is more appropriate for that.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2019
  14. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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  15. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Aren't those MBLs those plasma things? Oh gawd those were horrible. Wasn't I with you @ultrabike at THE SHOW while we cringed to them. I think it was the second year too, which was better than the first year they were there.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2019
  16. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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  17. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Oh shoot. It's all coming back. On the MBLs:

    Plasma tweeter things. Please fire phasers or photon torpedos at my eardums. f**k this shit. Needs bigger woofer too. Where is the woofer?

    I even forgot that I did hear the M2. I guess I got there early before the JBL rep went full-retard.

    JBL M2. Really f'ing nice. I assume this is trickle down [or up] from their K2. Big woofers for real audiophiles. Excellent horn design with nary a horn coloration. JBL Pro has really nailed it. Punchy, dynamic, clean. Probably could use a bigger room. Could probably sound even better with better ampage.
     
  18. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

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    The problem is that omnis are hyper sensitive to room acoustics. And the omnidirectional radiation principle, in my opinion, is flawed because no real instrument has constant omnidirectional sound radiation. It would only work in an anechoic chamber and in most real rooms the sound ends up being unbearably bright.
     
  19. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Yes. Omnis and Pseudo-omnis give an incredibly large sweet-spot. Or no sweet-spot at all. And interact with the room quite a bit.

    They should have drapped the MBL room all around. Even then it might have been a bit bright.

    The Anthony Gallos have no excuse though. Those were the small satellites, and they were very bright.
     
  20. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

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    On top of that no 'omni' speaker is really omni-directional.
    This MBL manages cylindrical propagation towards walls; ceiling and floor is not touched with same care.
     

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