PAP Trio 15 and DIY - Discussion

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by Hooncake, Apr 23, 2018.

  1. Cspirou

    Cspirou They call me Sparky

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    Just wondering but is there a gap between the baffles for the drivers?

    Edit:

    Nevermind, the pics show a pretty clear gap. For open baffles the distance the signal travels from the back to the front is important and the gap shortens that distance a bit. One simple mod would be to try and seal this space.
     
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  2. Hooncake

    Hooncake Mid-Fi Purgatory Redemption

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    hmm since then we've tilted the whole thing about 10-15 degrees in MTM to have the the mids at our ear level. I can't remember if it's better or worse but I didn't like the TMM because it was above my ear level ( was still better than low MTM where sound was way below our ear level). We didn't really A/B too much cause it's too much work switching cables and panels lol.

    I'd say just get the mid at your ear level and you should be good.
     
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  3. dBel84

    dBel84 Friend

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    Has anyone tried different crossover configurations? Active vs passive and series vs parallel. It looks like the stock crossover is a first order series crossover from the image posted.

    Also wondering how much impact moving to 12" drivers would have. I know it is all about moving air but 15" drivers are massively imposing

    I may just need to try this myself and see.

    .. dB
     
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  4. fraggler

    fraggler The Cable Guy - Friend

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    They also sell a 10" based system with drivers from Morel. I was looking at these for space reasons. Only got a brief listen at Axpona, but hard to draw any conclusions since they were playing classical music at a pretty low volume.
     
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  5. murphythecat

    murphythecat Friend

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    I have someone that wants to buy my Harbeth shl5plus, but I really dont know what I would get to replace them with

    the only speaker that seem very promising to me is the PAP voxativ 1.6

    anyone, by chance, have heard the shl5plus and the pap voxativ? probably a long stretch but we never know!
     
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  6. dBel84

    dBel84 Friend

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  7. sphinxvc

    sphinxvc Gear Master East

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    I finished my own prototype version of an AC 1.6 TMM in open baffles this weekend. :)

    These are partially inspired by the Trio15, and partially by @Serious OB project. Like @Serious, I've set the breitbänder back by about 11-12cm for time alignment, and used the cheaper Beta-15As as woofers. And like the Trio15 @Hooncake parked in my house for a while, these have the Leonidas x-over but with better (or at least more boutique) components.

    The result is a speaker I'm very happy with, and because of which, I'm not at all missing the DeVore Fidelity Super 8s or Nines I lived with for 7 years.

    [​IMG]

    The baffles are much smaller than Serious' baffles, or anything modeling would recommend, but once you have a look at and listen to the Trio15s, you learn a pretty decent sound is possible from a non-ideal and small baffle. I'm sure anomalies will show up in the response when I finally measure, but so far, these sound as good--if not better--than the Trio15s.

    [​IMG]

    This is the first time I'd constructed a speaker from scratch. I had to buy pretty much all tools required. The main thing was a Ryobi trim router. Yeah, a wireless trim router. It was a bitch to hack the Jasper circle-cutting jig to fit it (and it never perfectly did), but it meant I could wirelessly cut circles somewhere outside my NYC apartment.

    [​IMG]

    Turned out just like the SketchUp model. That's both a good and bad thing, because SketchUp definitely doesn't account for how much plywood flexes, and flex it did! I added some plywood along the sides to help brace that back-and-forth flexing. Final version of this speaker will be braced up the wazoo.

    [​IMG]

    Drivers mounted and sides braced. Unfortunately, the Voxativ had to be set way too tall. I've had myself and my friends sit all kinds of ways on my couch and determined 95cm off the floor to be the ideal listening height, but because I had to cannibalize plywood used for another project for this one, I couldn't help but put this up too high. Maybe I can angle the whole thing down some.

    [​IMG]

    There are only four parts on the Leonidas schematic posted on the last page. This is publicly available on DIYaudio, and was posted by the guy from PAP. I used a Jantzen Audio 7.0mH 15 AWG Air Core Inductor Crossover Coil, ClarityCap 68 mfd CSA CopperConnect Poly Cap 250V, Mundorf Resistor 8R2 Ohm 20W M-Resist Series (this one is stock, but I'm going to try replacing it with another Path Audio resistor), and Path Audio Resistor 10R Ohm 10W. I recycled the Voxativ cut-outs to serve as the x-over board. These are pricey parts, but I liked what I heard out of @Hooncake's, hence why I bought the same. I didn't clone his tumorous capacitor polyps though, there were some Jupiters and Duelands in there too.

    [​IMG]

    Here's the whole thing wired up. I actually prefer the Beta-15A to the Neos thus far. The latter had dryer bass, and the former have wetter bass with more sustain. This helps make the Voxativ's midrange sound more organic, and so far, I can't tell that I've taken a resolution hit (if at all). The sustain also helps offset what you typically miss going to OB bass from cabinet bass.

    Setting the Voxativ further back does seem help coherency. I'm also able to localize bass easily with this speaker, which is a first for me. Maybe it's just because of that giant acoustic panel pillar adjacent to it (this arrangement in my room is new).

    I've bought the parts to try out Serious' x-over, so I'll be trying that too. Overall, I'm acoustically/sonically satisfied (even if not aesthetically). For the final version of this thing, I'm contemplating CNC-commissioning a design. Total build cost was a bit more than $2K, with $1.5K coming from the Voxativ!
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2018
  8. dBel84

    dBel84 Friend

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    I may have bought some crossover components to start messing about with ; @zerodeefex .... seems like I might get my AIG well before you do :sail:

    ..dB
     
  9. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex Grumpiest admin

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    @sphinxvc interestingly, I was working with a coworker on a design using notched 2x8s to recess my moths from my woofers.

    Joke's on you: I just finished applying contact cement to both of my woofer baffles so I can apply PSA backed veneer to them tomorrow :p. I'm not going to sit on my ass and wait for you to embarrass me.
     
  10. sphinxvc

    sphinxvc Gear Master East

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    I actually got a Path Audio 8R2 in today to replace that M-Resist. These parts are an indulgence, but worth it based on what I'm hearing.

    Getting more focus and a more organic tone.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2018
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  11. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex Grumpiest admin

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    forgot the neos use a slightly larger cutout than my Alpha 15As: IMG_20180724_143418.jpg

    This was my test baffle for my first veneering test. Fucked up one edge with the trimmer but I am going to cut it down a bit anyways (oversized the baffle on purpose).

    IMG_2589.jpg

    Once I finish veneering all the sides of both baffles, I'll just do a darker stain then run the woofers along with the moths for now.

    I think next steps for me are to finalize the design of single woofer + moth fullranger + appropriate bracing with a slight recession for the fullranger baffle. Once I do that and get a test one built, I'll put out a cutlist in a format that can be used with a CNC so those of you with makerspaces nearby can take a 4'x8' sheet of MDF and get it all cut out for you. I'll also post some of the things I've been doing to get the veneer to work well, etc. since I'm totally horrible at actually making decent looking cabinets and I want to share the tricks I'm picking up.

    Then, maybe, one day I'll move from 2 to 4 woofers total like the PAPs.

    Edit: also, I am building a separate filter for the woofer vs the fullranger so I can amp each separately. I am hoping to build the newer Pass B5 kit once it hits the DIY Audio store but I'm just using a cap for the moths + a behringer for bass management. The Vidar will probably persist to power my woofers in the final setup as well since it's a phenomenal amp for woofer duty.
     
  12. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex Grumpiest admin

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    I guess I'll start here with random veneering advice:

    After trying out many types of veneer, I find PSA backed veneer to be the easiest to work with. If you're putting it on MDF, you have to use something to eliminate the porous nature of the MDF, though. I use a layer of contact cement that I allowed to dry, followed by a light sand and then I applied the veneer.

    Get a good edge trimmer as well. I bought two to try out and the cheaper one chipped some of my veneer edges.

    With regard to holes, make sure you make the cutout first, then apply veneer. Then, from the top down, apply pressure all around the cutout without breaking the veneer (you'll see a nice round outline of your cutout). Use a hard dowel and push down along the inside edge of the baffle to break the veneer. I got a really decent circle, went around it with my edge trimmer to clean up the big jagged edges, then sanded.

    I'll experiment with stain and post more info when I have it as well.
     
  13. fraggler

    fraggler The Cable Guy - Friend

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    Which veneer and edge trimmer did you go with? Going to do my first veneer job soon and hope my Bosch bit will be up to task.
     
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  14. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex Grumpiest admin

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    There are a few on amazon (edge trimmers). The super cheapo band-it only works well with the grain. I’d get the beefier ones so you don’t chip an edge going against the grain.

    With regard to veneer, I just used veneer tech PSA backed veneer. I have some nicer stuff from better online vendors but this worked out.
     
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  15. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex Grumpiest admin

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  16. dBel84

    dBel84 Friend

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    Finally got some 10" drivers that will do the trick for OB

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    They are no longer in production but I managed to get a quad NIB - Exodus Audio DPL-10

    there are a few forum posts of people using them with good results - probably going to go TMWW with the RAAL 70-20XR on top, the cicadia full ranges below and the woofers on their own baffle below. Most likely mock it up with 3 front baffles ala PAP so that I can play with configuration but keeping both woofers on the same lower baffle.

    ..dB
     
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  17. dBel84

    dBel84 Friend

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    Things are moving along slowly

    I have all the drivers I plan to use, been messing about with various layouts and aesthetically I like this most but I may not have much choice if it sounds nasty

    upload_2018-8-7_12-53-31.png

    As I am collecting parts for a passive crossover, it has me wondering if I should just pick up a mini DSP 2 X 8 instead of messing about with the passive elements – seems to allow for a lot more fine tuning but then automatically assumes numerous amps. So looking at 4 amps to drive this beasty in active mode.


    [​IMG]


    Anyone have experience with trying both and then settling on a solution

    ........while waiting for PASS’s B5 ( which will also need 4 amps )


    Just not sure how good these mini DSP units are but crossover parts add up quickly.


    ..dB
     
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  18. dBel84

    dBel84 Friend

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    I thought I would post this in case someone is looking to experiment on the cheaper side. I stumbled on these while digging through forums looking for suitable drivers for a 10" version of the PAP ultimately I opted for the out of production exodus audio but these were a close second and would have been 1/5 of the cost. I still considered the DPLs good value at $100 ea.

    There has been a fair amount posted about using these cheap 10" GRS bass drivers in OB

    [​IMG]
    Available at parts express.

    .. dB
     
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  19. dBel84

    dBel84 Friend

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    Seems like I am hogging this thread but it may provide others inspiration / consideration when time comes to build.

    Even though the digital crossover would make the most sense for tuning, the flexibility of the passive crossover is more appealing.

    I am going to keep options open for a second order series 3-way vs bi-amping two first order crossover networks. John Broskie's articles provided me with various options for laying them out and the formula for calculating the necessary component values.

    [​IMG]

    Crazy how quickly cost adds up when dealing with 6 inductors and a similar number if capacitors.

    .. dB
     
  20. dBel84

    dBel84 Friend

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    Found another suitable OB Woofer, this time a 12" made by SB Acoustics as an OB driver, available at Madisound for $180.

    [​IMG]

    I do think I need to find time to start cutting holes or I might end up theorizing far too much.

    .. dB
     
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