Phono Cartridges

Discussion in 'Vinyl Nutjob World: Turntable and Related Gear' started by JK47, Jan 12, 2016.

  1. shotgunshane

    shotgunshane Floridian Falcon

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  2. mitochondrium

    mitochondrium Friend

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    I got a DDT2 Special for a very good price and I really like it. I use it at 160 Ohms but there are people who run it @ 50 Ohms. The guy who mounted the vdH on a head shell for me measured it. It has a channel separation of 31 dB. I think the three lower vdH are basically different selections. I am very happy with it. I chose for being able to run it at a force of 1.2 g only. Most modern cartridges need 1.5 to 2 g. My spinner maxes out at 1.5 g. That is the disadvantage of a spinner from the time when arms were very light.
    Value for money wise it will be hard to beat the AT. I prefer the possibility of a retip to a trade in but that is my preference. I admit the chance to get a cartridge from a famous master who probably will not make that many cartridges played a part in my decision. Moreover I cannot adjust the height of the arm and the vdH fits perfectly.
     
  3. JayC

    JayC Resident Crash Test Dummy

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    I've got an update since my post from almost 2 years ago, and I'm looking for suggestions for the next step.

    I took the suggestions from earlier about upgrading my phono stage first and moved from the Mani to a Darlington Labs MP-7 and it was a big step up. From memory, openness and detail were the biggest improvements. I felt really drawn into the music and stopped looking for an upgrade in cart. In the last 2 weeks though, I've had the chance to pit my vinyl setup (MP110 + Clearaudio Concept + Darlington MP-7) against a really good digital setup (pi2aes + Yggdrasil) and while its really still enjoyable, I do find that there is room to improve in the treble extension/detail and stage width + depth, so I'm now looking at upgrading the cart in the coming months or so.

    I've also got the possibility to move to an MC cart because I've got an SUT as well so the options are really limitless. Carts I've been looking into are around the 400-500 euro mark:
    Nagaoka MP200
    Hana EL (maybe the SL, if its really worth the extra)
    Ortofon Bronze/Black
    Ortofon Quintet Black S (theres a nice deal on it at the moment, but still above budget tbh)

    I had to cross out the AT line, the VM540ML/740/etc as they dont fit the relatively low mass arm of the Concept when I look at the calculator here: http://korfaudio.com/calculator

    I've mostly been leaning towards trying out the Hana EL as a solid step into the MC world (with a price that wont burn my wallet) but I find myself second guessing the choice based on varied opinions within a small set of data that seems usual within the vinyl cart world..
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2023
  4. lehmanhill

    lehmanhill Almost "Made"

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    I wouldn't rule out a low hours used cart that would allow you to step up even farther. I have used hifishark, audiogon, and usaudiomart to find such carts in the past. As long as you find a seller with a good reputation, the risks aren't bad. Some years back, I found my Music Maker 3 that way and recently bought a Soundsmith Zephr MIMC Star.

    Alas, I don't have any experience with those carts, but let us know what you found as I am interested in dipping a toe into the MC world.
     
  5. Biodegraded

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    Did you add cartridge weight to arm weight when using the calculator? Doing that with the static compliance figure for the VM540ML makes it look like his "good" example, so according to him, it should be fine.

    But also, I'd be wary of dismissing carts based just on that calculator. His example of the DL-103 suggests it ought to sound like shit on light arms (this has come up here before, maybe even in this thread). However, many people have reported using them on light arms (Technics) with good results. I'd ask in trusted vinyl forums about any combo you might be interested in. Like you've done here :)
     
  6. JayC

    JayC Resident Crash Test Dummy

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    Wait doesn’t the dynamic compliance factor need to be used? Because that’s how I ruled out the ATs

    But yes I get what you mean :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2023
  7. shotgunshane

    shotgunshane Floridian Falcon

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    The Vinyl Engine, the resonance calculator tool is set up for dynamic compliance at 10hz.
     
  8. lehmanhill

    lehmanhill Almost "Made"

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    That's an area where we need to be careful. The Korf Blog points out that reported compliance need to be quoted with frequency. Unfortunately, some cartridges are spec'ed at 100 Hz.

    @JayC

    Considering the AT line, why wouldn't you just increase the mass by adding a plate to the cartridge mount. That would increase the effective arm mass and make the cartridge suspension work harder.

    As an aside, I like the Korf calculator and the 4 blog posts of measurement that it is based on. I think the vinyl engine calculator is based on older formula. Of course, there is nothing like listening to see if your choice is an exception to the rule.
     
  9. je2a3

    je2a3 Almost "Made"

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    I just uploaded an article about two unknown magnetic cartridges. Pictured above was a unit I got from Amazon for under $18 but I only see a blue/gray version now which I linked in the blog. IMHO, this offers much more musical satisfaction than the Audio Technica AT3600L.
     
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  10. Biodegraded

    Biodegraded Friend

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    From what he says about dynamic compliance numbers for Japanese cartridges on his calculator page, I assumed he' s indicating not to use that figure, so I used the static instead. Regardless, as @shotgunshane says above, dynamic compliance calculators are usually set up assuming the specification is at 10 Hz whereas many Japanese manufacturers quote theirs at 100 Hz. To get from one to the other, it's usually advised to multiply the 100 Hz (Japanese) figure by 1.5-2. This worked with my Denon DL-110: the 'obsolete' (mono) formula and a factor of 2x the manufacturer-specified dynamic compliance suggested peak resonance with my tonearm would be around 8 Hz, which is where I observe the greatest oscillation on a test record.

    If it is dynamic compliance that should be used in the Korf calculator, multiply the AT cart spec by 2 and check the result again. Looks pretty good. And as @lehmanhill says, you can always add a plate to the headshell.

    Regardless of result, I'd still seek opinions from those who've tried the particular combination.
     
  11. bobboxbody

    bobboxbody Friend

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    I'm currently enjoying a nos Denon DL-160 I bought on ebay for $260. It was a decent match for the fairly low mass arm on my Dual 1229, but with an added 3g shim to bring it into the recommended arm/resonance range it's sounding very fine. It's an homc so no sut needed, so far it handles everything well. Big soundstage, nice treble extension, and deep bass when called for.
    I've been eyeing an MP-500 on ebay as well, sold directly from Japan they're much cheaper than retailers in the US, I don't know if EU import duties will ruin that for you but it's worth checking out. It looks to be the highest compliance in the line from nagaoka and has tons of great reviews, but I've never heard it personally.
     
  12. DignifiedAndOld

    DignifiedAndOld New

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    I upgraded from the MP110/Darlington combo to an AT-OC9xml with the Darlington MP-7/SU-7 and it was a game-changer for me. If you can make those compliance numbers work somehow, go for it.
     
  13. JayC

    JayC Resident Crash Test Dummy

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    Thanks for all the input! I'm gonna look a bit more towards the Denons, the Hana carts and the MP200 since it also gives me the option to throw on a 500 stylus once the 200 wears out. I will post when I make a decision and buy something in the coming months. In the meanwhile, more input is always welcome! :)

    Edit: as a complete turnaround, after a lot of reading I'm warming up to getting an AT33PTG/II after seeing a lot of good being said about it over on SH and VE. I'm going to give it a listen at a dealer an hour away from me and see if he's got a good deal on it for me
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2023
  14. lehmanhill

    lehmanhill Almost "Made"

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  15. dBel84

    dBel84 Friend

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  16. JayC

    JayC Resident Crash Test Dummy

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    Thanks for the find! I’m not sure it’s worth it after shipping to the EU and paying import costs, but for now I’ve already made my decision on the AT33PTG/II.. I’m going to get one once I have my holiday bonus in a bit :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2023
  17. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

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    I may have posted in a thread here that I was getting the Technics ECP-205CII-L cart with a JICO SAS stylus and was planning to use that as my new main cart. I did get it, but when I switched to the Tavish Adagio phono pre I could hear a significant drop in resolution, airiness, layering and other aspects when going from the ATT33OCC/ML to the Technics. However I've had the AT for a while and it came with my table with an unknown amount of hours on it so I felt I owed it to my vinyl to either get it retipped or replaced.

    After a lot of research and hemming and hawing I decided to try a Nagaoka MP-500. I have never heard a Moving Iron phono cart, so that intrigued me. I've never heard significant criticism or blowback on the MP-500, and have heard many enthusiasts say it's one of their favorite carts if not their singular favorite. And for a "flagship" phono cart, it was still reasonably priced enough (when ordered from a Japanese source because the US prices are too high in comparison) to actually purchase and not simply be aspirational.

    I don't even have a full ten hours on it yet but already it's the best cart I've ever owned. It seems to inherit the best qualities of both MM and MC carts, with a deep, detailed, and unmistakable low end, mids that have a bit of "sweetness" without feeling over-warm or irrevocably colored, and the air, space, layering, and technical resolution I usually associate with MC carts. And it has a replaceable stylus, thank the lord!

    I am currently using it with a Darlington MM-6 I'm borrowing from @Azimuth until the MP-7 I ordered arrives, and the pitch black noise floor and startling clarity of the Darlington combined with the resolving, textured, spacious, but never cold or dry MP-500, makes for the best that music has ever sounded in my system.

    As for the Technics, I'll keep it as a backup cart. Could come in handy.
     
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  18. Ntbm3

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    I have a very similar experience with the Nagaoka MP500!

    My set-up is:
    AT LP-7 + Funk Firm mat -> Magni 2 -> Freya N+ -> Tyr -> Spatial M3 Turbo S hologram

    Like you, I purchased from Japan on Ebay when the Yen was peak 'low' vs. USD and got it shipped for Japan for $600... amazing... it's not much more now.

    I have been extremely happy with my MP200 for some time. But took advantage of the opportunity for the MP500.

    If I compared the MP200 to the MP500 they are much more similar than different. The MP200 is just a fun cart with impressive bass impact and everything just sounds right with the MP200. I would be completely content with the MP200 if it was my only cart.

    IMO the MP500 adds extra technicalities like imaging, layering and resolution. Also the bass has impressive resolution with out giving up on impact. I honestly was 'hoping' for more of a difference but in the end happy the MP200 is so good for a 'reasonable' price.

    The MP500 does have that special magic that is hard to put your finger on. So in the end very glad I purchased and it is my daily driver.

    The MP500 is heavier than the MP200 due to all metal body, so there might be some compliance synergies that will be unique to your set-up.

    I think I am a Nagaoka fan boy :)

    Next step is considering a fancy phono pre...
     
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  19. bobboxbody

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    We're all moving in unison. My MP-500 from an ebay seller in Japan arrived last night, paid a little more, $650 shipped, but very happy. Nagaoka says there is a 30hr break in period, but it already sounds great. Hard to make any comparisons yet, as I'm not even finished with side 2 of the first LP, but compared to the DL-160 the bass is more controlled and resolving, and high hats are crisp but no longer as piercing. So far the vocals are a bit more recessed and highs a bit more forward than I would prefer but the highs at least should be tamed with break in. It's also a good compliance match for the arm on the Dual 1229 that I just finished restoring/rewiring.
     
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  20. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

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    I love it! Nagaoka fan club on SBAF. I have heard nothing but great things about the MP-200 as well and considered getting one and adding on an MP-500 stylus (not officially supported but it works) but the cost of the cart + stylus put me in the range of a 500, which I also got for $650 from Japan. And from now on I don’t need to buy or retip any carts, just replace the stylus, and don’t have to worry that I’m missing out on performance gains.
     

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