Pi 2 Design - How do I get started?

Discussion in 'Computer Audiophile: Software, Configs, Tools' started by purr1n, Jan 6, 2020.

  1. HumanFly

    HumanFly Acquaintance

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    It`s the pi2design 502DAC that takes 5V. The Pi2AES is 24V, and you cant just power the pi with 5v and have a working PI2AES. The 502 might not be avaiable anymore, not sure. Sounds very good but no (easy) i2s.
     
  2. Navin

    Navin New

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    Thanks.

    @13:05 in the video below the commentator talks about using a 5V DC bypassing the SMPS inside the Pi2AES
    How do DDCs improve audio? (Denafrips Hermes, Pi2AES, Schiit Eitr, ifi Igalvanic) - YouTube

    Also as per @hifiandrun , the Pi2AES can be powered using 5VDC
    "Second, power the PI2AES board from the pin 2 (5V+) and pin 3 (ground) on the expansion header alone the left side of the board"
    Raspberry Pi I2S to SPDIF Hat | Page 102 | Super Best Audio Friends
    CMA102 Motherboard (pi2design.com)

    I won't be using this Streamer + DAC combination with headphones. I intend to connect them to my amplifier and speakers.

    That said I have "inherited" several headphones and amps. Nothing special. 2 pairs of AKG K712Pro, 2 pairs of Beyer DT880 Pro, one Hifiman Sundara + one Ananda, an old Senheisser 600 and several pairs of Sennheiser 599 (the cream one) strewn around. This is because I have 3 locations where I sit at a desk. One has a pair of JBL 104s, the second a Focal XS 2.1 and the last one has the smallest Genelec (I think 8010). I have Aune T1S, iFi Zen Can and Fiio K5 Pro DAC/Amps to connect between the PC and these monitors/headphones. It used to be that the kids shared all of this plus one kid had his Steinberg Interface and the other her Motu Interface but now that they are gone it's all mine to manage. And I almost forgot I have an Aune X5s and X1s powered by an XP1 in the library but I haven't used those since Covid started. I guess when you are old you collect stuff. And then you realise how much, only when you have to list them all. :eek: Empty nester syndrome.

    Music is varied. I can't give you one reference because I don't have one. I listen to everything from Rock to Jazz to Blues to Classical and even some world music. Yes in some cases the recording is "iffy" and in some cases, the recording is "audiophile" but that's just the way it is.
    Pi2AES Design + ИБП (8треков) - YouTube

    I am in this for the music not for the numbers. I don't understand much of MQA or DSD but my only worry was that one day DSD will replace PCM (44.1/16). I chose the X16 because the Pi2AES was designed to work with the Gustard I2S input (The Pinout is compatible with Gustard I2S Interface). Weirdly one reviewer mentions in passing @27:05 that the I2S input of the Gustard did not recognise the Pi2AES. Any idea why?
    Gustard H16 & X16 _(Z Reviews)_ No Gemstone STACK - YouTube

    Lastly, I am open to suggestions and correction. It is why I am here and why I asked if you had any suggestions for an audibly better DAC than the X16.
     
  3. Navin

    Navin New

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    At least 2 sources offer that the Pi2AES SMPS can be bypassed and hence the Pi2AES can be powered from 5VDC.

    @13:05 here
    Gustard H16 & X16 _(Z Reviews)_ No Gemstone STACK - YouTube

    @hifiandrun said "Second, power the PI2AES board from the pin 2 (5V+) and pin 3 (ground) on the expansion header alone on the left side of the board"
    Raspberry Pi I2S to SPDIF Hat | Page 102 | Super Best Audio Friends
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2021
  4. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

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    You are bypassing the built-in circuit protection when you do that. This voids your warranty as well. This was confirmed some time ago by @Michael Kelly. A member here had a power supply die and take out his Pi2AES by doing this. It can be done, but you are warned. Since you seem to be so frightened about the unit becoming obsolete in the future due to 2 dead or dying formats, it seems this is a large investment for you, so may not be advisable, but do as you will. If you want more info please PM the people that did it rather than asking more questions on the various threads.
     
  5. Michael Kelly

    Michael Kelly MOT: Pi 2 Design

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    The Gustard DAC I2S input can be adjusted for various sources. Ours requires the default, no swap setting. Perhaps the other folks did not contact us or did not understand before they posted the incorrect information. I would appreciate if you could point us to the bad info so we can clarify it.

    As for powering from 5V, it is not recommended or supported by us as the vendor. But, once you own it, it's yours to do as you will. Just be very careful! :)
     
  6. hifiandrun

    hifiandrun Almost "Made"

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    @Navin. Thanks for reading my previous post about the Pi2AES power modification. But it may mislead other readers if you only quote the sentence without the context. Here is the link of my post: Raspberry Pi I2S to SPDIF Hat. I mentioned that I tried and it worked but the modification did not improve the sound thus I didn't use my Pi2AES that way.

    I did it when most available products at that time would yield better sound with a good LPS due to their design. Specifically, the "better sound" I meant digitized fatiguing sound versus non-fatiguing sound. The Pi2AES is different. In addition to many other improved and unique designs of the Pi2AES (high precision clocks, for examples), the onboard power supply was carefully designed so that the isolated external LPS would not improve the sound signature but only very slightly altered the sound signature. Please note that we are talking about very small difference when compare DDCs (digital-digital convertor). I ended up just used the external SMPS.

    Regarding to the DSD, I used to think that the DSD was the better format due to the "analog" sound signature, but that was before the schiit multibit DAC and before good DDCs (such as Singxer su-1, Allo Digione Signature, and Pi2AES) on the market. A friend told me that the Singxer su-1 still benefit with a 5V DC LPS supply. And there are better USB-DDC better than the su-1 but my point was that I now prefer PCM after all the recent improvement in DDC designs. This is just my 2 cents.
     
  7. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    I2S sounds fantastic from the Pi2AES for DACs that support it, better than AES and BNC. The problem is as you mentioned. I2S is not a standardized transmission protocol. It's serial bus which is really supposed to be in the lanes on a PCB. As such, there could be minor issues (swapped channels), moderate issues (proper lock on of sampling rates), or major issues (wrecking stuff).

    I think the verdict is still out on the X16. It's a lower end Chi-Fi design which IMO has not demonstrated mastery of the ESS chips. I'd easily take a better more established DAC that will hold its value with AES or BNC such as the Soekis than the Gustard.

    If MQA or DSD replaces PCM, I promise that I will buy you a Lumin U1.
     
  8. Ksaurav402

    Ksaurav402 Friend

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    upload_2021-4-6_12-19-43.jpeg
     
  9. Navin

    Navin New

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    Firstly, I would like to thank everyone for the time and energy they are expending on my questions. I do not know why I am unable to "Like" posts but I suspect it is because I am a new member and do not have that privilege yet.

    Thanks. Never thought of that. Let me see if I can find this Meanwell SMPS in India. I don't like import hassles which is why I preferred to use the locally manufactured Allo USBridge Signature to the Raspberry Pi4 (which would have to be imported).

    GST40A24-P1J - Mean Well - AC/DC Power Supply, ITE, 1 Output (element14.com)
    GST40A24-P1J MEAN WELL USA Inc. | Power Supplies - External/Internal (Off-Board) | DigiKey
    GST40A24-P1J Mean Well | Power Adapter Desk Top C14 24V ErP 40W | 880-8388 | RS Components (rsdelivers.com)

    Thanks, Mr Kelly. I don't have the electronics chops to bypass the inbuilt SMPS. I will get the SMPS thingy. Fortunately they are easily available in India. The Element 14 guys are friends of mine (as are the local Allo guys).

    The only intention to use the Allo Shanti to power the Pi2AES was that it is (a) available locally and (b) one power supply could power the Pi2AES and the USBridge Signature.

    Because "i2S sounds fantastic" is why I am considering the Pi2AES and an I2S capable DAC.

    The Matrix Audio Element M (streamer/DAC) does everything I want but it costs $2000 each in India. With 4 stereos in our home (3 bedrooms and 1 living room) it adds up. Our home is too old and would require too much work (the walls are 9" thick and no 2 rooms have common walls) to LAN up and WiFi (Mesh wifi included) does not reach 2 of the bedrooms so each stereo will have its own independent streamer/DAC.

    The object of DIYing (other than learning) would be to get the same quality of sound for less (maybe around $1200). This meant that I would be spending about $500-700 on the streamer and $500-700 on the DAC. Yeah, the object is to eventually make 4 of these.

    For $500 or so I could get the USBridge Signature ($200 local) + Pi2AES ($250 imported) + Meanwell SMPS ($20 local) + Aluminium Case ($30 local)
    For $700 (in India) I could get the Schitt Bifrost 2, Project DAC Box DS2 ultra, Cambridge Audio DacMagic 200M, or any number of the "Chi-Fi" DACs from Topping (D70s), SMSL (SU9), Gustard (X16), SonCoz (SGD1), etc.

    When it comes to products I could care less about the country of origin. The Cayin amps for example are well made (I think they make amplifiers for PrimaLuna (I DIYed their Prologue One Kit some years back). I might not care for the politics of the country or the CCP but I have seen too many badly run countries with beautiful people to link politics with the people.

    I don't know how MQA (which is a compressed format) would beat PCM (which is uncompressed) but DSD might (I don't know enough about DSD though). I do understand PCM (we used to use Sony PCM 3324's digital tape recorders in the studio in the 80s). I can't fathom why in 40+ years since (PCM) they haven't got a format that can beat it. BTW this is what that 3324 looked like (just posted the first link I got in Google).
    Sony PCM 3324 Digital Audio Multi-Channel Recording 24 ch 1/2" | VINTAGREEN | Reverb

    Now I am looking forward to that Lumin U1! :D
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2021
  10. Michael Kelly

    Michael Kelly MOT: Pi 2 Design

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    You can't "beat" PCM because PCM is just data. The actual raw data, no compression or folding (or ironing, washing, rinsing, etc). DSD is also just raw data, but presented a bit at a time instead of 24-bits at a time. Anything else modifies the data in some way.
     
  11. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

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    Short of a good Soekris implementation, I don't think there are many good DIY DAC options out there. Twisted Pear might have a nice 9038 project, but I haven't heard it and the old Buffalo with a 9018 left a bad taste in my mouth.
     
  12. Navin

    Navin New

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    Exactly both PCM and DSD are bits. PCM is 16/24 bits in a "frame" with 44.1k or 48k or some multiple of either "frames per second". DSD is 1 bit "per frame" and 2.8224M or some multiple of that "frames per second". And 2.8224M is just 64x 44.1k

    Given that they are both just bits, either one done well would beat either one done poorly. It's more about implementation and execution than the technology used. My theory is that since PCM has been around for a long time, "they" might have extracted all there could be from that technology. Maybe with the technology of DSD being newer (since SACD days) it might still not be fully "utilised"

    There is a Soekris DIY DAC? Where? You got a link?

    There is a 9038Q2M DIY board from Ian Jin (aka Ian Canada). Outside of that this Mercury DIY is the only 9038Pro version I know.
    The Mercury Balanced I/V Stage (twistedpearaudio.com)
     
  13. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

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    Here it is - http://www.soekris.dk/dam1021.html

    Omg, so many PSU's!
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2021
  14. Navin

    Navin New

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    @purr1n check out post #2318 from "misterdog" in the link below :D
    (3) Gustard X16 Balanced MQA DAC Review | Page 116 | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

    Wow! I am still trying to digest the streamer (USBridge + Pi2AES) build.
    BTW how does one display Artist/Album/Song on a streamer? Is there a ready (plug and play) solution for this?

    The dam1021-12 certainly looks very enticing. Won't this DAC board will require several a power supply, some sub-boards and a display board? I don't see any input sockets for I2S or SPDIF (Coax/TosLink)?
     
  15. Navin

    Navin New

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    Would this 6V-12V power supply do?
    SHUNT power supply – MuzgAUDIO

    I would also need a PCB that connects the J3 connector to one Coaxial SPDIF input, one Toslink SPDIF input and one LVDS-HDMI input with (Bit CLK, LR CLK, Data, 3.3V, and GND). As well as a 1.2V/3.3V power supply for biasing the coax and the Toslink inputs respectively. Is there someplace I can buy this board?

    Also which USB decoder board would one use?

    Lastly I just found this 9038Pro board. Does anyone know anything about it?
    Shop (quanghao.com)
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021
  16. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

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    There are several options, but any one of them is hardly plug and play. Getting the standard Pi touchscreen seems to be the most accessible. I'm sure others have figured out how to integrate smaller LED screens to display only text.

    It needs a power transformer, minimum. A regulated PSU can also be used, I think @Priidik knows how to make these things work at their best.

    Maybe this is worth pursuing instead- http://www.soekris.dk/dam1941.html
     
  17. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

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    I remember there being a project on diyaudio.com. With that said, the project as it's posted on their page is 600$ without any PSU's, Amanero USB and output stages and casing.
     
  18. Metro

    Metro Friend

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    On RPi running Volumio, MoOde etc, the user interface is a webpage that you view and operate on a web browser (phone or computer), or a touchscreen can be directly attached to the RPi. It will show Artist/Album/Song.
     
  19. Navin

    Navin New

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    Thanks, Hrodulf for all your effort and time.

    I did read up a bit about this. I think I would have to break this into 2 separate projects. This way I can start building the Streamer while debating the DAC. Otherwise, all this will only be theory.

    Part 1: The Streamer (USBridge + Pi2AES + Power Supply + Software + Display)

    Which software should I install on the USBridge. The Allo guys offer 3 options - Volumio, Moode and Max2Play. Which is simplest and least buggy? I have no experience with any software. The object is to have the streamer operate like any other audio component.

    Is there a small 2" high display I can plug into the HDMI port so my streamer fascia can look like a Cambridge Audio, NAD etc? Which of these are plug and play?

    1.44inch LCD display HAT for Raspberry Pi, 128x128 pixels, SPI interface (waveshare.com)
    3.2 inch Touch Display for Raspberry Pi (rhydolabz.com)
    3.2 inch 320X240 Primary Display For Raspberry Pi 4Dpi-32 [RAS-2572] : rhydoLABZ INDIA
    2.66 Inch E-Paper E-Ink Display Module (B) - Waveshare : rhydoLABZ INDIA
    5inch HDMI LCD (B) (tannatechbiz.com)
    Waveshare 3.2inch RPi LCD (B), 320×240 (tannatechbiz.com)


    Part 2: The DAC (1021 + Input board + Display Board + Power Supply)
    What are the advantages of the dam1021-12 vs dam1941-12?
    How does one get populated Input Board and Display Board?
    What is the recommended Power supply?

    I see Soekris offers unpopulated Output Buffer Boards, Display Boards, and Power Supply Board for the "1941-12" (see like). Can the same be used for their "1021-12"?
    dam1941_fileset.pdf (soekris.dk)

    Ready board would be nice as many of the components are not available in India. Even simple components like the isolation pulse transformer for the Coax input are not available here. Without ready boards, I do not think this DAC is something I can complete.

    I did some reading including parts of a 1000 page thread on diyaudio (it started in 2014) and it was exhaiusting
    Reference DAC Module - Discrete R-2R Sign Magnitude 24 bit 384 Khz - diyAudio
    AZ OLED setup kits for Soekris dam1021/1121 control - diyAudio

    This article on Wordpress was a little easier and detailed but according to it you have to accumulate parts from several vendors. Shipping from so many vendors might cost more than the parts.
    Soekris dam 1021 R-2R DAC ILLUSTRATED GUIDE | H i F i D U I N O (wordpress.com)
    Soekris dam1021 Build | H i F i D U I N O (wordpress.com)
    R-2R DAC For The REST of US | H i F i D U I N O (wordpress.com)
    The Soekris R-2R DAC: Technical Details | H i F i D U I N O (wordpress.com)


    I don't intend to use a computer but I am comfortable using a tablet (iPad). The object of having a display on the display would be see if the streamer was working and what was playing without having to reach for the tablet.
     
  20. Navin

    Navin New

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    Dear Mr. Kelly,

    I understand from the Pi2AES website that the Pi2AES I2S output is designed to work with the Gustard DACs. I was told that the Gustard X16 has a slightly flat and forward response thanks to the ESS chip (in this case a 9068) which has a hump in the response. This "ESS hump" has been tamed by Ben Du who designed the SonCoz SGD1 (that uses the 9038Q2M chipset).

    The options I was offered hence were to either get the SonCoz SGD1 and use the AES connection between the Pi2AES and the SonCoz SGD1 or get the Topping D70s and use the I2S connection between the Pi2AES and the Topping D70s.

    I understand there are R2R DACs that are better than the Topping and SonCoz (and SMSL) but the only R2R (aka Multibit) DAC I can afford is the Schitt Bifrost 2 which only has USB and SPDIF (Coax and Toslink) options. The Pi2AES does not offer USB out hence the only option to connect to this DAC would be SPDIF.

    1. Would the Pi2AES work with the Topping D70s via I2S?
    2. Given your experience with DACs would you prefer the D70s over I2S vs the SGD1 over AES or Bifrost 2 over SPDIF?

    Unless there is a DIY DAC kit that offers all the parts including display, input and output boards as a set, it might make little sense to DIY. I want to get down to enjoying music first.

    The USBridge + Pi2AES + MeanWell Power supply seems reasonably DIY to me. I still need to find a way to get a small (sub 2") screen to work with the USBridge. Any pointers in this direction would be helpful. Thanks.

    The SonCoz SGD1 is not available at any price. The local price for the Schitt BiFrost and Topping D70s are $850 and $750 respectively (compared to $600 for the Gustard X16). A USBridge/Pi2AES Streamer will cost me around $500. This totals to about $1100-1250-1350 which is a considerable saving over the Matrix Audio Element M that retails for $2100+ here.


    One last question: Since I intend to connect a self-powered USB hard disk (La Cie D2 Professional) to the streamer, I was told that the best way to do this is to get a Router with a USB port and connect the USBridge via LAN cable to the router and the HardDisk via USB cable to the same router. Does this make better sense than using the "Clean" USB port on the back of the USbridge Signature to connect to the HardDisk?
     

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