Power conditioners/regenerators advice

Discussion in 'Advice Threads' started by elmoe, May 25, 2019.

  1. PsiPhi

    PsiPhi New

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2021
    Likes Received:
    32
    Trophy Points:
    13
    Location:
    Canada
    I may not be understanding correctly, but it sounds like you have a ground loop of some kind going on here.

    As a sound tech, I am all too familiar with this phenomenon. It can create a lot of stress tracking down these gremlins and killing them before showtime - which, depending on the setup may be in a matter of hours!

    In your case, the fix may be as simple as lifting the shield on one end of the cable(s) connecting your computer and iPod to the rest of your sound system.

    Here is a plug and play solution with a better explanation;

    https://www.jensen-transformers.com/what-is-a-ground-loop/
     
  2. bixby

    bixby Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2015
    Likes Received:
    3,987
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Northern Colorado
    @rhythmdevils

    To be sure we are talking about the same thing, when you say dedicated lines, do you mean all the outlets in a room in one circuit and the other dedicated line being all the outlets in another room, each room being controlled by a separate circuit breaker or do you mean separate wall outlets in one room?

    Another thing, are any of the outlets switched by a wall switch? I am not an electrician but something about wall switches and outlet noise is common. Sometimes I get a power on noise when an appliance kicks on in another room on another circuit but only on the switched outlet. Goes away after it kicks on. In my old HF setup when I turned on a ceiling fan with wall switch I could hear it pop through the HF setup and sometimes it even caused the PC to reboot. Crazy.

    Troubleshooting this stuff is best when you take things out (especially all the power fixer uppers til you have a good handle on the base stuff) and strip back to bare essentials for audio then add stuff in. And it could boil down to a poor ground at the outlet for example. Start pulling plugs then move stuff around and slowly add in until you find which is the culprit then move around some more to see if you can resolve.

    Also, anyway to use phone freq analyzer app to measure roughly what freq the noise is? That may be helpful if it is not 60hz or a harmonic.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2021
  3. PsiPhi

    PsiPhi New

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2021
    Likes Received:
    32
    Trophy Points:
    13
    Location:
    Canada
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2021
  4. rhythmdevils

    rhythmdevils MOT: rhythmdevils audio

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2020
    Likes Received:
    12,239
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    Home Page:
    I don't know enough about electronics to answer this with the right terminology but I have multiple "dedicated lines" in my room" because of how much I have plugged in in here. My audio only line goes all the way to the circuit breaker for the whole house I believe. It's the best dedicated line I could have put in according to the electrician who did it.

    No, definitely not. This line just goes to one outlet, which all my audio equipment is plugged into. It's even a Pangea XL outlet for extra audio goodness.


    Maybe there is a wire touching another wire somewhere that is causing this?
     
  5. Beefy

    Beefy Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2021
    Likes Received:
    1,738
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Canada
    Oh right, I get it now. I didn't even really consider that the computer was connected to the audio gear. Coffee first, then read.

    Yeah, isolation might be needed between computer and audio. Optical is isolated obviously, coax SPDIF and AES should be transformer coupled. USB would need a galvanic isolator to eliminate ground loops.
     
  6. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

    Pyrate Contributor
    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2017
    Likes Received:
    7,738
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Canada
    How is your Pi2AES connected to the network? Ethernet hardwired or Wifi?
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2021
  7. bixby

    bixby Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2015
    Likes Received:
    3,987
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Northern Colorado
    So you have a computer charger (assuming not the pi, power supply, laptop I guess) and an iphone charger plugged into the non audio circuit and this is the cause of noise in the audio circuit, correct?

    What happens if you move the computer charger and iphone charger to another room on another circuit? My guess is no noise right? if so one of those is injecting noise into your non audio circuit and it is getting into the audio circuit. A possibility is something is linking the two circuits. Etherenet , router, shared ext usb drive for data for the pi?
     
  8. dericchan1

    dericchan1 Facebook Friend

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2021
    Likes Received:
    103
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Canada
    Hello anyone, wonder if anyone have any impressions/experiences with this Tripp lite automatic voltage regulator that adjust overages or under voltage to the nominal 120v?

    https://www.tripplite.com/1800w-120...tion-avr-ac-surge-protection-6-outlets~lc1800

    kinda thinking in my head to feed my furman power conditioner into this to make sure proper voltage gets fed into the furman which then does the AC filtering for my audio rig. Not sure if it’s the right idea.

    thanks

    Deric
     
  9. Elnrik

    Elnrik Super Friendly

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2017
    Likes Received:
    8,973
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Denver CO
    Home Page:
    I have that.

    It only has a limited ability to step up or down voltage, but it still works just fine. If you have a noisy window air conditioner on the same breaker as your audio gear, for example... When the air conditioner kicks on, a big sag hits your gear, this will automatically step up the voltage. It also provides filtering of its own, so you can probably ditch the Furman assuming all you need is six plugs.

    As far as I can tell, it's just a transformer in this thing + some basic control and surge protection circuits. Imagine you've got a fairly big transformer that has five taps on it. The first is 1:1, and when everything's fine at 120V, that's what gets used. If it needs to adjust your voltage up or down, it switches to other taps that might be something like 1:1.1 or 1:1.3 to accommodate any sags or brownouts that hit your power. So if the voltage drops from 120V to 101V, it would automatically switch to whichever tap will provide closest to 120 volts. It's not super precise voltage regulation like what you're going to get on a PS audio regenerator. It also doesn't cost anywhere close to one of those regenerators, so... yeah.

    I hope that all made sense. Also, I would plug the Furman into this, not the other way around.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2021
  10. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

    Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    7,464
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Winnipeg
    I have one of these. It does the job. The question though is whether you actually need something like this in your home hifi setup. I used mine (in the days before the pandemic) when setting up PA gear in sketchy venues with old wiring and questionable safety where power sags and surges were a fact of life. For most home uses though, this isn't really a concern.

    Do you have frequent brownouts or surges in your area?

    edit: ninja'd by Elnrik, and I believe it's an autoformer not transformer.
    edit2: actually maybe it's a multi tapped transformer, I think it depends on the model
     
  11. Elnrik

    Elnrik Super Friendly

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2017
    Likes Received:
    8,973
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Denver CO
    Home Page:
    Yeah I honestly don't know. *Shrug*
     
  12. dericchan1

    dericchan1 Facebook Friend

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2021
    Likes Received:
    103
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Canada
    thanks for the info, much appreciated!!! My house is over 30 years old, I do get brown out once in a while. I also notice different parts of the house, some of the dimmer led lights are flickering.

    The furman line level conditioner does have surge protection and extreme under voltage protection (but probably not a regulator in a sense that it adjust under or over voltage, the unit probably just shuts itself down).

    So I was wondering if it might be a good idea to plug the furman into this. I currently have my pc, dac, power amp, ht receiver, bluray player,, google mesh point, echo tv cube plugged in to the furman.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2021
  13. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

    Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    7,464
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Winnipeg
    Two tangential questions:
    1) are the LED bulbs dimmer compatible?
    2) do you have new dimmers installed that are meant for LEDs, or are they the same dimmers from when the house was first built?

    If you didn't answer yes to both of those questions, that's going to be your next home upgrade.
     
  14. dericchan1

    dericchan1 Facebook Friend

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2021
    Likes Received:
    103
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Canada
    the led pot lights are dimmable. I put about 100 pieces along with proper led dimmer switches through out the house and outside around the garage during the pandemic as a house project and they all dim fine except certain areas of the house.

    also listening to music while turning on the on wall electric fireplace causes a trip of breaker sometimes
     
  15. rhythmdevils

    rhythmdevils MOT: rhythmdevils audio

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2020
    Likes Received:
    12,239
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    Home Page:
    Can you explain this more? Sorry I don't understand.

    Wifi. It is plugged into my audio circuit for power, but it doesn't seem to be the source of the noise, the computer and iPod chargers seem to be.

    I only use Tidal for music at the moment, so I have no usb drives or anything but the Pi2AES and audio gear on the audio dedicated line.

    Some audio power wires could be touching computer/iPod charing wires. Is this a serious possible cause of the noise?

    UPDATE: I got a new power cable for my MacBook Air that is more flexible and either the new cable, or moving stuff to plug it in eliminated the noise, I haven't heard the buzz since. It seems to have gone away as mysteriously as it started.

    I bet it will come back at some point though, so if anyone has any other ideas I'd be welcome to them. :)
     
  16. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

    Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    7,464
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Winnipeg

    Ok if the pot lights and dimmer switches are all the same, that rules out any incompatibility. I would next suspect that the ones which flicker are overloading a particular dimmer. Could be you have too many lights on one switch, or maybe it's a bad switch.
     
  17. bixby

    bixby Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2015
    Likes Received:
    3,987
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Northern Colorado
    [QUOTE="rhythmdevils, post: 369742, member: 8662"
    Some audio power wires could be touching computer/iPod charing wires. Is this a serious possible cause of the noise?

    UPDATE: I got a new power cable for my MacBook Air that is more flexible and either the new cable, or moving stuff to plug it in eliminated the noise, I haven't heard the buzz since. It seems to have gone away as mysteriously as it started.

    I bet it will come back at some point though, so if anyone has any other ideas I'd be welcome to them. :)[/QUOTE]

    Re: the audio power wires touching the charging wires, yes it is possible to induce noise in a cable with a poorly shielded power cable. Many more times than I would expect, a cable has been a cause.

    GLAD to hear it is gone!

    No ideas on prevention, action on another outbreak, I would start with cable musical chairs.
     
  18. rhythmdevils

    rhythmdevils MOT: rhythmdevils audio

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2020
    Likes Received:
    12,239
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    Home Page:
    1)
    The buzz comes and goes and is super weird. The other night I could hear the hum when I touched the metal band on my LCD Audeze headphones, and it went away when I wasn't touching them. Another time the buzz came back and if I touched my liquid gold X amp, it went away. Then I noticed that if I touched my Jensen ISO Max transformer box, it also went away. So I unplugged SE from the Liquid Gold X and plugged it straight into my Yggdrasil A2 balanced and that seemed to take care of it. I don't need the SE amps now, but I will in the future. It seems to come and go with weird connection to me touching things causing it to come and go. I'm baffled but it does sound like a ground issue.

    2)
    I've got a second buzz problem! I got a Rhythmik L12 subwoofer a while ago and finally hooked it up to my Mackie HR624 MK1 speakers. My preamp is a Khozmo and has 2 outputs that both output at the same time for dual amping, so I'm taking long XLR cables from the preamp from outputs 2 and then to a cheap Roland transformer converter box, with 1ft RCA cables going to the sub. As soon as I plug the subwoofer in, there is a super loud buzz in the speakers. I tried swapping the cheap Roland transformer out for a Jensen ISO MAX but it made no difference.

    the is a dedicated line with a few other things plugged in but not much. The sub is connected to a Zero Surge power strip that is plugged into the second socket, with the other power strip in the first socket. Nothing else is plugged into the zero surge.

    I tried plugging an iFI ground defender into the sub but it made no difference. I will probably try unplugging the other power strip next.

    do I need a balanced isolation transformer?

    I can't believe the amount of problems I have with noise in this house. I'm sorry to keep bugging you all. :(
     
  19. rhythmdevils

    rhythmdevils MOT: rhythmdevils audio

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2020
    Likes Received:
    12,239
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    Home Page:
    It came back, when I plug in my laptop to power, my headphones buzz and they are plugged into different sockets which are both serparate dedicated lines. :eek:

    What's even crazier is that if I move my head, the buzz comes and goes. I can make it go away by just tilting my head sometimes. :eek:

    What the hell does that mean? EMF? I need to faraday cage the power strip my computer is plugged into or something? Or wrap the cable in copper mesh? I actually have some materials to do this, it would just be a huge pain in the ass because of where it's located.
     
  20. zonto

    zonto Friend

    Pyrate Contributor
    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2015
    Likes Received:
    4,975
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Boston, MA
    It's probably just a weird ground loop issue if the noise goes away when the laptop is not plugged in. Or a crappy laptop power supply. I've read about weird stuff like this that can happen in audio systems with appliances on other circuits, or dimming lights, etc.

    Can you try a replacement power supply? Does the noise persist if you plug the laptop power supply into the same circuit the rest of the gear is on? Or maybe wear a grounding strap or wrap yourself in copper mesh whenever you listen to headphones. :)
     

Share This Page