Returns Discussion

Discussion in 'Random Thoughts' started by Skyline, Oct 31, 2017.

  1. Skyline

    Skyline Double-blindly done with this hobby

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    You could, uh...listen to the headphones and THEN return them? And still not waste money...?

    Unless Sennheiser has a no return policy...

    Anywho...moving on this time. REALLY. :p
     
  2. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    If I was a headphone manufacturer, I would not allow this.

    Not to hammer you or disrespect you @Skyline, but if a costumer told me he wanted to return a healthy product because he or she doesn't like it anymore, I would honestly tell him to go f**k himself. Likely with those exact same words. As a mater of fact I think I did when I was working summers with my dad selling brooms. My dad told me it was fine. He didn't want those kinds of costumers anyway. Long story. It was bulk sales to distributors also.

    I know in some places this is perfectly fine. But I don't think it's fair.

    It is what it is though. And people do business the way the want. And indeed sometimes one makes exceptions with big chains that buy tons of stuff (as long as they f'ing sell, otherwise things get murky).
     
  3. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Moving this here to keep the HD660S impressions thread cleaner.
     
  4. Skyline

    Skyline Double-blindly done with this hobby

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    I don't feel hammered or disrespected. Carry on.

    I would simply submit that until headphone manufacturers themselves develop ways for customers to easily audition their products, purchasing them is often the only way to do so. And, without the ability to return if dissatisfied, the prospect becomes highly unappealing to those of us who are cash-strapped.

    Personally...I FIND a way to audition first, but loaners here are, quite literally, my only option. And, as the general public doesn't have access to that...

    Schitt's solution is a healthy compromise, I think...
     
  5. Skyline

    Skyline Double-blindly done with this hobby

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    Cool. I added one more post as you were moving...sorry bout that.
     
  6. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    @Skyline Sure, but returning stuff is often easier said than done, unless through Amazon. I often have too much stuff going on and forget to return something within 30 days or whatever, or I might print off my label and forget to drop the package off. Real life gets in the way.

    On top of that, a lot of people have a tendency to want to keep things they buy. They get that attachment factor going as soon as they open the box. That can get in the way too.

    Lastly, I don't agree with buying stuff just to try it, with the intention of returning it if you don't like it. Maybe it's kosher with some return policies, but it just makes me feel weird personally.
     
  7. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    When cash-strapped, don't buy what one cannot or should not buy. One may sell, but used items get discounted. I don't feel it is the responsibility of the seller or manufacturer that someone bought an item that he/she didn't like or bought on impulse. It matters little if the person is rich or poor.

    And so I feel it is the seller of the used item that should take a hit for buying what he/she irresponsibly bought.

    No worries. We are here now.
     
  8. Skyline

    Skyline Double-blindly done with this hobby

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    I don't. To be clear, I don't engage in the practice of buying (retail) to audition.

    My point is, if a person has saved their money and have set aside $300, let's say, for an audio product, but have no way of auditioning beforehand, what do they do? You can try on clothes before you buy them, and return if you're unhappy. You can test drive cars. But with audio, these are not always feasible. Not everyone is aware of these things, and those that are aware still don't always have access. Good luck finding a HiFi shop in Nashville. It's a wasteland.

    Sure, you can sell gear on the used market, but if you buy for $300 and sell for $250, now you're in the market for a $250 headphone. Not enticing prospect.

    What say you, @schiit ? Your insight would be great.
     
  9. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    My friend, I bought an DT990 which I consider a mistake. Did I have another option to audition it? No. What did I go by? Reviews all over the place. Did I end up selling it for a $50 dollar or so loss? Yes.

    Such is life.

    Do I wished I had seen what @Marvey showed me about them before I bought them? Yes. I told him they were a big bright pile of shit before he measured them and offer his impressions. And indeed they measured like a big pile of bright shit. @Marvey kind of said one could equalize them. But they were and still are shit. It is what it is.

    Is the loss of money not an enticing prospect? No. But it is the buyers responsibility. Sucks to be us.

    (EDIT: I also sold my Audeo Phoniacs something something that were also relatively expensive, for a loss. I bought them. Nobody made me do it.)
     
  10. winders

    winders boomer

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    I agree with one caveat. Some products are specifically marketed/advertised as "Buy and return if you don't love it; we don't think you will return it". I would not have a problem buying, trying, and returning with those products if they don't meet expectations. Having said that, I don't buy stuff with the intent of returning it. I only buy what I want and can afford and my intent is to keep it.
     
  11. mkozlows

    mkozlows Friend

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    It really really really really depends. Look at all the internet mattress companies, for instance. They all have "sleep on it for 100 days, and return for full refund if you don't like it" policies, because they know darn well that if they didn't have those policies, people would think it was too risky to buy from them vs. a showroom where they could try mattresses out. So they totally want you to buy from them, even if there's a risk that you might not like it and will return it. There's a cost to the returns for them (a huge cost, since they can't resell them at all, and have to just donate/trash them), but that's part of their business model, along with ads and other customer acquisition costs.

    My general assumption is that retailers set their return policies appropriately for their competitive environment, hitting a point that doesn't depress their sales (too much), doesn't hurt their margins (too much), and that keeps them from having (too many) unhappy customers; and that if you're working within the letter and spirit of their policies, you're fine. For a lot of headphone retailers that means you can try it out and return it if you don't like it. Do your research ahead of time, but buy with the confidence that you can return it if it turns out to be not to your liking.

    (I say "and spirit" because there are things you can do that are within the letter of policies, but clearly not intended -- like, order a mattress from each of six internet vendors, try each of them for a few nights, and then keep the one you like best -- and doing those things are assholish.)
     
  12. Skyline

    Skyline Double-blindly done with this hobby

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    ([/QUOTE]
    Understood. I simply refuse to play this game. I can't afford it. Not because I'm poor (though, you know...teachers salary and all), but because my wife and I have implemented this mythical thing called a budget. Surprisingly, marital bliss is worth more than expensive audio. :p

    Audio companies would get more of my budgeted funds, faster, if there were a way to demo in advance. Instead I tend to sit around and wait for two years until I finally have a rare opportunity to give something a listen.

    My audio hobby never would have gotten off the ground if it hadn't have been for the generosity of kind folk here, and Marv in particular who shipped me his personal gear back in the Changstar days.

    Anyway, all this to say that while I don't play the return game, I understand why it is beneficial to some who aren't out to abuse the system. And, I understand why it could be to a company's advantage to allow it. Schiit's compromise is a good one, if a company doesn't want to allow free reign. To refuse returns at all, is just silly. I don't think it's good for either side of the exchange.
     
  13. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    I don't play games.

    I buy items I intend to keep. I don't buy items I don't intend to keep.
     
  14. Lyander

    Lyander Official SBAF Equitable Empathizer

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    Return items? Sure, so long as the cost of doing so is shouldered by the buyer, as well as the discount the retailer will have to apply to the item upon resale considering its open-box condition. No such thing as a free meal in this world, I fear. People forget that there are usually people behind these faceless corporations, and though some of them have thick faces (Filipino saying that doesn't translate well— means "shameless"), they've gotta make a living too.

    One of the things I like about this site, as opposed to certain unnamed others, is how everyone is encouraged to put in their time reading, due diligence, I believe. Not everyone can survive practising that kind of selfless generosity, not unless they've got a stranglehold on the market (which is far from the case here in audioland). Hell, I've been tempted multiple times this year to upgrade to so-and-so cans, or jump right into this obtainable upper mid-tier amplifier, but thankfully enough there are people on here whose preferences I'm aware of and who've waaaaay more experience with nice toys than I, who've shared their impressions about the shite I've been eyeing.

    Sure, I'm about to drop like $3-4k total on a pair of cans, and amp, and a DAC in about three years' time (I'm not crying, you are!), but that might very well be endgame for me, and I might even spend less in all than if I'd kept on buying whatever I could afford and tossing it back into the wild at a small loss. Those losses add up over time yeah? Death from a thousand cuts.
     
  15. Ringingears

    Ringingears Honorary BFF

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    Same thing happened to me with the DT990’s. Except I called the dealer (out of state) before I bought them and had a long discussion about my headphone preferences. Especially my sensitivity to bright piles of shit......um treble. Was told I’d love these. They came. Had the same opinion as you. Called back. Guy said he was sorry, and said to ship them back. I exchanged them for some LCD 2r2’s I think. That’s a different story.
    I miss the old days of hanging around stereo shops. :(
     
  16. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Well, that sounds more like a dealer problem. I wouldn't frown on that because there was some sales lip service there, and a very misleading one.

    It also depends. I mean, if I ask a "helpful" Fry's rando-representative for help and throws some random shit at me, then it's on me cuz I know those guys don't give two shits. But if this is a "Magnolia" Best-Buy deal, where you got this suit-tie rep doing his salesmanship show, then it a bit less black and white IMO.

    I agree with you there.
     
  17. rott

    rott Secretly hates other millenials - Friend

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    If purchasing from a retailer that explicitly states their return policy, why is the returning of any non-custom/bespoke product considered unacceptable if you're genuinely not satisfied? That's part of a retailer's customer service. How do you think a retailer's sales would fare if no returns are allowed? Do you think a majority of consumers would still shop that retailer knowing they'd have to take on a resale risk?

    What makes audio equipment any different from anything else one can generally return, according to a store's policy?

    Or is the issue buying specifically with the intent of auditioning and returning?
     
  18. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    That is the issue.
     
  19. Cspirou

    Cspirou They call me Sparky

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    If they have a restocking fee then I have zero guilt(like schiit). I have a similar feeling if the retailer allows exchanges. I’ve returned one item ever that wasn’t defective on Amazon, and I ended up buying something else that was similar. I usually do careful research before buying for even cheaper items.

    But I assume most of us return items in good faith. At least we aren't like Ken Rockwell who will buy and then return the items he reviews.

    Extra shitty since he makes a considerable amount of money from his review site.
     
  20. Jozurr

    Jozurr Facebook Friend

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    From a costing perspective it does not hurt manufacturers to offer returns for online sales due to the following reasons:

    1) If the manufacturer sells directly to consumer, they make around 45% more than they would make if they sold them via distributors
    2) They are bought online, so costs of having a store/demo space/staff in multiple locations etc are saved
    3) They accept returns, refurbish them, and still sell them at a profit - it makes them less profit vs more profit, not a loss.
    4) More people buy headphones knowing the option of returns exist. Let's say 10 people would not buy headphones if they werent offered with a return option, but if these 10 people are offered options for returns and end up buying them, it's likely that 7 of them would keep them because you have to make up your mind to buy them, you already have them in hand, like them, don't not want them anymore etc etc (multiple reasons). The other three that do return them, sell at lower tiers as mentioned above. Would you rather have more people buy headphones and likely keep them, or not buy them at all?
    5) The production of these phones is not limited by time/manufacturing capacity/inventory (I'm specifically talking about mass manufactured phones not boutique items) - so there are no opportunity cost losses by selling refurbs at lower profits vs selling new ones at full profits. The more the number of sales at ANY profit, the more the bottom line (albeit lower percentage wise compared to revenue). If inventory was limited, I'd agree it hurts the bottom line.

    Manufacturers offer returns for a reason. If they were making losses/reduced profit at the bottom line due to offering returns as compared to not offering them, they'd stop. I know there are consumer laws etc in place too, but that's a different topic.

    From a distributor/retailer perspective, some manufacturers offer extra units free of cost (FOC) to accommodate for chances of returns/warranties (negating the effect of losses of margins and usually applies to international sales) or they have refund policies in place for items returned from customers (allowed to sell below MSRP as open box, return to manufacturer etc). So for example if a customer returns an item to a distributor, they either are sold at less profit as an open box (lets say at 25% less) and this loss of gross margin is accommodated by either FOC units or having an option to send these return units back to manufacturers for refurbishment in exchange of newer units. Then they go back to the points mentioned above.

    The ethics of doing this are debateable too - Yes manufacturers know sometimes there will be people buying JUST to try them (but not ALL the time), but they are counting on you to end up liking them/forget to return them and even if you do end up returning them, they go back in the refurb box etc.

    Please note that all of this applies to mass manufacturers and not boutique manufacturers where production capacity/man hours/availability of parts/working capital to fund new/refurb inventory etc are limited.
     

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