Rockna Wavelight Impressions/Review

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by ChaChaRealSmooth, Oct 15, 2020.

  1. skem

    skem Friend

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    I put the WaveLight on the audio analyzer and could not find a lick of difference between the SE and Balanced outputs except that each side of the balanced line is individually hotter than the SE output. The signal-peak-to-noise-floor ratios were the same for both outputs. I tested both single tones and a 10-tone signal with tones separated at octaves. FWIW, in single tones the second harmonic was down at -95dB and the structure was the same for both outputs: decreasing amplitude for each successive overtone. The IMD test did show a much higher noise floor, but I don't know how much of this is the DAC and how much are other things in my janky measurement setup. Anyway, more proof that measurements don’t measure everything.

    for what it’s worth, I typically believe that SE is better unless you have a noise problem because there are fewer transistors doing asymmetric things in an SE chain. In my DIY experience, single output transistors on amps really do show a nice improvement in transparency over cascades, etc. There are rare circumstances where a design needs parallelism, such as in balanced DACs that use balanced ladders to correct level errors—but I’ve never found anything that does the conversion to be transparent enough to justify mixing the two. So, I initially thought SE out of the internally SE WaveLight would be the better experience given my SE amp. But I too heard the sour sound of the SE. It just sounds dissonant. Not like third order, or less detail, etc etc. just unpleasant. Someone should measure the output impedance as function of frequency for the two outputs to see if there’s a difference. @atomicbob maybe?
     

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    Last edited: Jan 31, 2021
  2. StageOne

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    Just to clarify, are you using the Signature or the standard DigiOne? And also what power supply? Thanks for your insights.
     
  3. skem

    skem Friend

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    DigiOne Signature. Using ifi wall warts. I have tried battery operation of the clean side on multiple DACs and it has never made even the slightest difference. But I can hear massive difference (degradation) switching to something like USB+ Eiter.
     
  4. lithiumnk

    lithiumnk Acquaintance

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    Which linux software are you using with digione signature ?
     
  5. skem

    skem Friend

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    Whatever comes with MoOde 6.7.1.
     
  6. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    Have done some listening on this today.

    Two immediate thoughts:

    1. I was prepped and ready to poo-poo on this. Rockna seems a bit too ORFAS-like for me. Discrete ladder DACs seem more like FOTM these days. And SBAF isn't immune to jumping on dumb choo-choo hype trains. Figured I'd need to bring some balance to the force.

    Nope. It's legitimately good shit. Like, within a few minutes of listening, "Wait, can I afford this?" *checks MSRP* "Nah. Dang."

    I don't think it's for everyone, but I do think it's very good. And I think we'd be better off if more DACs learned a thing of two from the Wavelight. But I'll talk about that later.


    2. On SE vs XLR outs, my gut feeling tells me this will be situational. By that, I mean...

    What's the topology of your amp? Is it inherently single ended or balanced? Does it convert single ended to balanced, or the other way around, at any point? If so, how? Does it use input transformers? What sort of signal levels will the inputs handle before you run into any sort of possibly audible issues? If you're using any sort of transformer for SE/XLR conversion, you're more likely hearing your transformer and how it interacts with the Wavelight's particular output.

    For reference, output voltages are listed as such on the Rockna site, though I'm not sure if the balanced out is a typo:

    Max. out (SE/XLR): 2.4/5.8 Vrms

    That is hotter than usual, and if that's not a typo, the balanced outs could be disproportionately hotter than single ended compared to what you'd normally expect. That very well could throw off your muscle memory if not doing careful level matching. And don't try to tell me you're immune to hearing louder as better, or that you don't project your desires for a bigger schlong by assuming balanced must be better because it's bigger (physically, as in the plug/jack, and in signal level) or because you read it on the internet somewhere.

    I'm flipping between SE/XLR outs into my Cretin-Upgraded (tm) Magnius, doing my best to level match by ear...And I'm hard pressed to hear a difference.

    As much as I hated the stock Magnius, the CUM is at least performant in enough traits where I've been able to pick out differences between DACs, both using same types of output or one SE, one XLR.

    Well, at least in this situation, either there is no difference that I can't chalk up to margin of (user) error, or the difference is small enough to the point my brain knows I have better things to masturbate over.

    And there are going to be caveats in this situation, same as if you have input transformers in your mix. Question then is what's going to better answer how the DAC itself is performing?

    I'm not sure it really matters. I'd listen to the shit out of this regardless of SE/XLR based on how it sounds with my CUM. And I might be trying to say in a slightly more polite, and very much so less direct, way that I think y'all are missing the forest for the trees in the pursuit of self-congratulatory schlong stroking on this one.

    Nonetheless, I will double, even triple check this as I continue listening over time. I can't count higher than 3, or else I'd check that number of times as well. And I'll gladly eat crow or human byproducts if I find I was mistaken on this.
     
  7. Baten

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    Never thought I'd type this but @Hands any chance you could tell us more about your CUM? :eek:

    Edit: found it.
     
  8. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    I don't have a true VRMS DMM, but SE outs measured 2.3V, and XLR 5.8V. Seems the specification is not a typo.

    Again, this makes subjective testing tricky. Textbook standard, I believe, is 2VRMS SE / 4V RMS XLR. Not only are both outputs hotter than standard, the XLR outs are proportionally higher relative to SE than you'd normally expect.

    Any muscle memory you might have with your potentiometer can go straight out the window, if you test subjectively. Even I found myself not quite turning up volume enough with SE, or not turning down enough for XLR, and even subtle differences can give the impression of one sounding better than the other.

    I'm not certain, and could be very wrong on this, but 5.8VRMS might be hot enough where even higher end input and SE-to-balanced transformers might get close to their rated maximums (i.e. 1% THD at 20Hz). This could audibly impact the sound beyond the inherent sound of the transformer itself.

    Even if transformers aren't in the mix, we do still have to consider overall circuit interactions. Unfortunately, things are not always as simple as plug and play in this realm.
     
  9. skem

    skem Friend

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    The strange thing is balanced sounds better despite being hotter—SE sounds sour to me, like an out-of-tune instrument.

    Hotter gives one a better noise floor, but in most other respects hotter involves compromises (volume corrected, of course). An overdriven transformer will ruin the sound, not fix it; there’s more clipping effects including compression before clipping is actually achieved; and greater component nonlinearities when operated over a bigger voltage swing. These are all general statements and not universally true, but it does make the output mystery more of a mystery.

    I’m of the view that the hotter output may reflect something internal that also accounts for a positive sound-quality change. For example, driving a transistor into a better range or something to do with output attenuation on the SE causing a Zout issue. Has anyone opened it up and looked at the circuit topology?

    And how the #^+@ does one get a measurbator tag and not own a trueRMS DVM?;)
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2021
  10. Clemmaster

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    Yep, there’s a sense of ease with the BAL outputs that’s not there with the SE ones, even when converting back to SE with a J-ISO.
    SE outputs have some glare to them that makes long listening somewhat bothersome. Switch to BAL and the stars align and it’s party time!
     
  11. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    @skem @Clemmaster Can you remind me if you two were testing SE vs XLR in situations that did not involve using only half the phase of the signal or sending it through some sort of transformer for balanced/SE conversion?
     
  12. Clemmaster

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    Yes, I was using normal SE out directly into ECP T4 and something felt weird about the pairing. Some sort of glare that made it hard to get fully connected with the music and hear all the details the DAC is capable of producing.
    At the time I felt the Bifrost 2 was a better pairing with the T4. Now with the J-ISO it’s no longer a question.
    I’m not sure I ever tried picking only one phase of the BAL output with it, actually (I used to with the Burl).
     
  13. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    Is this a +4dB to -10dB, balanced-to-SE transformer box? If so, and if they use the same transformers seen in the box Jensen sells themselves, those will change the sound in a peculiar way. I used to own one of the ISO-MAX boxes myself but found it just as much of a tradeoff as gimped SE outs. Different changes and tradeoffs, but still just as much as an overall tradeoff.

    That you mentioned it helped with glare...Well, that ISO-MAX did have an uncanny ability to create a Vaseline-smeared, lucid dream-like state. I've heard their pricier, 1:1 transformers are better.

    Either way, inevitably, transformers like that will change the sound to some degree, for better, worse, or just "different." Yes, there's the possibility it will do something else that happens to agree with the amp on a more technical level, but it is otherwise mostly going to come down to subjective preference.

    And, in this case, we still have to account for the likelihood that the signal will be hotter coming out of a +10 to -4dB box than if you used straight SE outputs.

    As such, this use case makes it pretty difficult to ascertain differences in the DAC's outputs. Throwing a transformer box into the mix is going to change the sound. That's not to say you won't like the sound. It may, in fact, synergize in amazing ways. But it doesn't help drill down into the core performance aspects of the DAC itself so much.
     
  14. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    ^ This. Not always a bad thing, as you mentioned, can synergize in amazing ways. Note that the 1:1: Cinemags I spoke of did not do this. Best and most transparent is still no transformer, but sometimes the SE outs suck so much that using the BAL outs with a transformer are well worth it.
     
  15. Baten

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    The times I did use a transformer I felt like whatever it did to the sound was subjective actually pleasing rather than the opposite. If 'transformer sound' is a thing I'd say it's not something unappealing.
     
  16. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    In general, this has been my experience with the handful of line level transformers I've played with. However, I felt the Jenson 4:1 ISOMAX was more particularly colored than I have been accustomed to. The CMLI-600 is even better than the CMLI-15 in my DIY converter box post. However, the 600 requires more juice from DAC outputs to sound good.
     
  17. skem

    skem Friend

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    I tested it both ways. Once with an OpAmp-based balun and then later just taking the positive phase. In both cases SE was more sour; but the OpAmp balun did other degradation as well and was kicked out of the chain early on.
     
  18. Clemmaster

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    The J-ISO is a 1:1 transformer.

    If the vaseline allows me to connect with the music and prevents the itch etch/hardness of the SE outputs, then I'll take it anyday!
    I don't have time for foreplay :cool:
     
  19. Baten

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    The J-Iso is a "+4dB to -10dB converter". Sure doesn't seem like 1:1 to me :confused: It's still a jensen transformer isolator though so performance looks very good.
     
  20. Clemmaster

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    It sure does to me: Jensen JT-11-YMPC
     

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