Roon Discussion

Discussion in 'Computer Audiophile: Software, Configs, Tools' started by AllanMarcus, Jul 3, 2016.

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  1. SineDave

    SineDave Friend

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    I've tested with the following DACs via USB and AES, since I have them around. All competent USB implementations. Not all fantastic DACs however I do use my ADI2-Pro often for its ADC functionality.

    RME ADI2-Pro
    Topping D90
    Schiit Modius
    Soekris DAC1541

    Totally agreed - I think there is just a tendency for some folks to assume that AES is automatically superior to USB, which is not the case for all DACs.
     
  2. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

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    Agree that great USB implementations on the DAC side can mitigate most crappy USB outputs, but as others have said, I would not necessarily say that about the Pi3B, which to my ears sounds worse than the USB output of my Intel NUC (which was going into Unison USB on Yggdrasil). And my SOtM streamer USB is much better sounding than them all.

    When I compared them going into Yggdrasil with Unison, this was my order of preference:

    SoTM SMS-200ultra Neo (USB) > Pi2AES (AES) > Intel NUC (USB) > Pi3b (USB).

    The differences are pretty small though, but once you go up, it’s hard to go backward. The plankton and atmospheric/spatial aspects are greatly improved on the Sotm and Pi2AES over the other two, and instrument separation as well as smoothness (lack of grain/etch). This is purely listening in my 2-channel rig (my HP rig is very basic).

    I’ve not heard the Pi4 USB out, but have heard it’s better than the 3 - will have to pick one up to give it a try.
     
  3. gaspasser

    gaspasser Flatulence Maestro

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    I respect your opinion and will try it out on my Pi4 with Modius in the near future. I had DAC1541 and also had USBridge + LPS and Pi2AES. I agree the USB implementation is very good on DAC1541, however there was a definite but small increase in resolution and sharper transients (preferred) through Pi2AES. I would assume it is the transport versus AES input. However, most here have experience with the “sound” of the different inputs in the Schiit DACs. Especially with Unison versus AES; they do sound different from each other.
     
  4. YMO

    YMO Chief Fun Officer

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    Remember guys, Roon is only an metadata UI interface, it doesn't get too involved on digital transports and USB this and that and crap this and that.
     
  5. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

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    ^ Yep - further discussion on that topic should be in a streamer or Pi2AES thread.
     
  6. Ksaurav402

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  7. wormcycle

    wormcycle Friend

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    Thanks, I just got miniDSP SHD, works as Roon endpoint with recent Roon version, but it is uncertified. It would be a nasty surprise if it stopped working
    In the link there is pretty long explanation why etc.. but for people who have no patience, or time to read all, what is really needed is filing the linked form and attaching three screenshots with Roon server config.
     
  8. wormcycle

    wormcycle Friend

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    I was interested what prompted them to stop the clients from using non-certified devices and some of the statements from Danny, their COO are just bizarre, the same guy by the way who dedicated his life to supporting MQA:
    “If an uncertified Roon Ready device has made itself seen by non-developers, they are a bad actor. There is no legitimate WIP outside their development teams. We do not allow public betas.”

    That is, mildly speaking, very weird approach to software adoption.
    I worked for years in IT with customers in FI helping them with early adoption of beta versions of software. Many more clients were managing their own adoption of beta software.
    Of course this approach is common in personal computing. And that benefits both clients and developers.
    At the end of the day a company like miniDSP with beta support and real clients using the system in multiple setups, will have more stable and reliable software than some folks who went to the certification process with the total of six developers having any first hand experience with the software.
     
  9. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

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    I get the sense that they have been very clear with vendors how their software/licensing works and have warned them to stop shipping product that are Roon Ready when they have not been certified. Seems like they have been patient for some time and are finally shutting the door to companies that continue to contravene this.

    Your experience with IT software development or Betas doesn’t mean anything unless you understand the inner workings of how their platform and certification process works. I’m sure these are not stupid people that don’t know you potentially need a wide install base to understand how software will react once released into the public at large, but they likely have some ways of dealing with or mitigating this. Not to mention, if the device they are certifying is a known quantity, with only so many outputs and protocols to communicate over, this likely simplifies things significantly.

    The main people to take issue with here seems clear is the device vendors, not Roon IMO. Seems like Chord may be one of the companies being assholes here (that’s me reading between the lines here, but it would be no surprise).
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2020
  10. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    I admit I am not 100% clear as to what "Roon Ready" means. Perhaps it is more relevant to ethernet devices than USB and traditional audio digital pathways? My expectation is that Roon does its darnedest to play with just about anyone and everyone. Not interested in (yet another) "ecosystem", walled off and $managed$ by Roon or anyone else. I am with you @wormcycle , Danny is bizarre. He did his best to prop up the wanker Bob Stuart (who he treats like a mentor) and his MQA project...
     
  11. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

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    I make no judgements about that guy (yeah, he may be a douche, esp if he’s tied up with Bob Stuart) but their position on the reasoning for this change seems clear.

    Roon Ready basically means it’s RAAT certified, which yes, is their proprietary network streaming protocol. The output of that network device can be anything (USB, I2S, SPDIF, etc).

    Roon Ready info here: https://kb.roonlabs.com/Roon_partner_programs
     
  12. YMO

    YMO Chief Fun Officer

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    Downside of Closed Environments like Roon: You have to Pay to Play

    For Roon, that means someone who isn't tech savvy can do more of a "plug n play" than anything else. I know tons of Audiophiles who aren't tech smart, so anything to make it easier is what they want. That means Roon over standard UPnP/DLNA.

    As long as they don't go nuts on Roon Bridge/PI Boxes then we are good.
     
  13. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    Yes, RAAT is ethernet specific, is proprietary, an "ecosystem", etc. (thanks for the link). Click on the "partners" link on that page and the first thing it says "Roon Plays with Everything", followed immediately by an explanation of the "Roon Ready" closed environment and a list of players currently in the sandbox, heavy on the ORFAS side of audiophile world.

    We all understand why RAAT is a thing (and Dante, AVB), why UPnP/DLNA and the rest are not the standard (price, convenience, and ease - and none of these "solutions" fullfil these basic requirements), etc. I for one don't think any of this is good, as it hamstrings digital/computer audio to USB and suboptimal solutions that holds everyone back. We are not good ;)
     
  14. wormcycle

    wormcycle Friend

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    All valid points but this is the conversation Danny was supposed to have with the vendors, not with me, or Roon clients in general.
    Roon server can recognize an uncertified device and may, or may not connect to it. It does connect, That's not other vendors decision, or mine, it was Danny's decision, and the only reason vendors were able to put Roon Ready on non-certified devices, because they worked with Roon server.

    For most clients, and as a customer I really could not care less what Danny meant by licensing, beta, certification etc.. non-certified simply meant that if something goes wrong with a particular endpoint, Roon will not support it. That' OK and that' fair.
    Entirely different from saying that two weeks from now Roon server will stop connecting to those endpoints.
    It was enough pushback that he partially reversed this decision.
    The bottom line is that either you allowed uncertified endpoints to connect or not. Once you allowed that, reversing the decision, at least for existing system is just screwing up Roon customers. That part is not vendor's fault.
     
  15. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

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    Agree with not cutting existing users/devices off. The grandfathering idea makes more sense, if it’s technically feasible. And hell, why not make the “uncertified” banner even more prominent when using Roon (without interrupting the experience of course) than just putting it on the “audio” tab where most will never see it unless they have issues. Notify the user clearly, but don’t cut them off, I’m cool with that.

    The Roon Ready certification is more than just about support though. It’s also about the customer experience and the Roon brand. If an uncertified device acts quirky and has issues with Roon or crashes sometimes, but never quite enough for a user to complain and/or contact support, this is still a problem. A non-lifetime customer may just choose to drop Roon eventually and move to something else, or at least feel dissatisfied with Roon and perhaps tell their friends. All things Roon doesn’t want. Consistency of experience is what they’re trying to achieve with the requirement for certification (as well as the ability to support customers).
     
  16. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    Can someone simplify this for me and let me know if this has any implications for Roon Bridge on a RPi-based streamer?
     
  17. wormcycle

    wormcycle Friend

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    No RPi based streamer, by that I mean Rpi with HAT, is a software endpoint and you can always find the image that is Roon certified for almost any Rpi flavor of OS.
    That makes sense and this question was directly asked and answered in the Roon form thread on the subject.
    Unless by RPi based streamer you mean a custom device build around RPi, like Bryston's BDP-π, that may affect it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2020
  18. Riotvan

    Riotvan Snoofer in the Woofer

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    Well their support so far has been shit imo. Only works through their forum and they just stop replying and ignoring me while it’s clear their software has a problem.

    About the minidsp situation I don’t like that either but i have a backup at least. Will see what happens, love the interface and so far it has pissed me off less than volumio.
     
  19. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    So what if I like to install my own distro and use their bridge install script? I mean I can use vendor provided or otherwise certified images if needed, but I'd rather do things my own way.
     
  20. Riotvan

    Riotvan Snoofer in the Woofer

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    I run the server on my linux box and the roonserver script(has bridge and other bits included) and my linux sound cards all show up as certified. I imagine it’s the same with the bridge.
     

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