SBAF DAC Talk II

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by Maxx134, Jul 22, 2018.

  1. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    This is easy:
    1. Convert-2: Vivid mode transients, wrap-around stage, simplified but pure pristine timbre, incredible life-like slam.
    2. Solaris: Slightly tipped up tonally, incredibly deep expansive stage, relaxed and easygoing transients. Sweet highs, or on the wrong system, grating highs.
    3. Source: Good tone and timbre but rolled at both extremes, good transients but also slightly dull and veiled, stage as flat as Kiera Knightely's chest.
    4. Gungnir A2. Precise imaging and depth rendering, outstanding resolution. Tonal balance and transient attacks between Convert-2 and Solaris, but closer to Convert-2. Dense timbre a la old school R2R. Cold on the wrong system.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
  2. skem

    skem Friend

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    Exactly! After an exhausting day with lots of critical listening, I had literally packed up Solaris ready to ship it off. But then after dinner, I wanted some classical music and the Solaris box was in the living room next to the Walsh-F speakers driven by Ayre MX-R (this is the non-critical listening system). So, I hooked up Solaris and listened at a quiet volume to some classical music while reading through SBAF. The compression on solaris really helps bring out detail when listening at lower volumes; and the crossover-free Walsh-F omnis manage to exploit the incredible stage of Solaris. After about an hour of this I thought, “this is the most enjoyable listening experience of the day.”

    If you listen to music to inject adrenaline into an otherwise tame existence, or because it’s a cheaper way to release your internal rage than therepy—then yes, Solaris will suck for you. But if you want music to escape the harsh demands of life, the AKM dream world awaits. The Solaris does not offend in any way.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
  3. skem

    skem Friend

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    Maybe I should try Schiit again. The Convert-2 has a bit too much high-frequency energy for me but it’s tolerable, not harsh, and with some music I really like it. The Gungnir Multibit A1 I had two weeks ago was far worse and universally grating regardless of music selection. Perhaps I had a fluke unit.

    As I understand it, Gungnir Multibit A2 is warmer (CORRECTION: cooler, see below) than Yggdrasil A2. And Yggdrasil A2 has a touch more detail and timbral accuracy. Is that correct?
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
  4. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

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    Convert 2 sounds like something to investigate further in this case. Thanks.
     
  5. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Gungnir A2 is less warm and has less bass punch to Yggdrasil A2 besides being a notch less good in all other aspects. Tonally, the Gungnir A2 is actually a little cool from USB Gen 5. The sound is more full-bodied and a touch warmer with Eitr and either of the two CD transports that I use.

    Yggdrasil A2 takes 3 weeks to warm up and not sound mushy or congested in the lows. Used units don't need as long to not sound like ass. I rearranged some stuff last night and disconnected Yggdrasil. It only needed about six hours to sound decent. It might need another day to get to where it was at. Three weeks isn't necessary any more.

    I only ever used Gungnir A1 with CD transports. Schiit never gave it Gen 3 because it would have been too close Yggdrasil. The Gen 2 USB was grainy, hazy, and prickly. For a warmer DAC, the Gungnir A1 is very good under these conditions: balanced out; a good SPDIF source (Rednet, Lynx AES card, Eitr, Berkeley USB, etc.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
  6. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

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    What are you feeding all these DACs? Like @purrin said, I find the transport can make a big diff with the Schiit DACs. Feeding it a standard PC USB out IMO is the worst choice and will be etched in the treble and thin sounding overall compared to other choices. Gen 5 USB is better than GEN 2, but still not the better of SPDIF or AES.

    If you have a darkish/warmish amp or transducers, maybe not a big deal, but if you are running a neutral to lean-ish setup to begin with, PC USB into Schiit Gungnir Multibit or Yggdrasil is not going to contribute postivitlely in the upper midrange and treble as they are capable of.

    In general I find Gungnir Multibit A2 has more body through the mids than Yggdrasil, which I think makes Yggdrasil A2 sound a bit more tipped up in the treble, but in reality I think it’s fairly flat. However it sounds more extended and sweeter than Gungnir Multibit A2, which sounded a bit more rolled off and easier going in the highs than Yggdrasil, but also a bit of a drier/blunter delivery.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
  7. damaged-goods

    damaged-goods Acquaintance

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    Did you havea chance to listen to the RME ADI 2 DAC yet under serious conditions? It would be great to have this one on the list, too.
     
  8. skem

    skem Friend

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    @rlow My original test of Gungnir Multibit A1 (possibly a bad unit) had been upgraded to Gen5 USB and fed from USB. It was pretty frickin' crispy. Like I said in my earlier rant, 3rd order distortion sound. I just wish I had measured it but too late now.

    I have since acquired Eitr, and have tried it with Adagio and Lavry. I find it does change things—most notably on Adagio which seems VERY sensitive to USB implementation—but not necessarily for the better. Not necessarily worse either, just different with virtues being source-material dependent. Jitter is a weird beast. Based on the jitter listening test that I posted in my status message, it seems clear that it is always a detriment to the sound, but some jitter colorations can be much worse than others. Based on that, I can imagine something like Eitr might make the jitter less, but not always better sounding.

    Convert-2 and Solaris have been fed from USB because Convert-2 can dictate the master clock; and because Solaris uses one of those nifty error-correction algorithms and evidently does an excellent job (hence the stage). Part of me wishes for a hybrid DAC with AKM or Sabre chip doing the data cleanup then feeding the bits into an R2R architecture.

    I do think source makes a difference, but I somewhat doubt the differences I hear between sources are anywhere close to the differences I hear between DACs (which I feel are actually very significant). Nevertheless, I will have Allo DigiOne Signature here on Tuesday. I figure that has got to be much better than Eitr when I think about how it works. I have designed a power supply for the SPDIF side that should have <400 nanovolt RMS ripple. I'll have to separate the RPi in a mu-metal box and take off any shitty voltage regulators that might be on the Allo board that generate their own noise.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
  9. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Convert-2 USB is pretty good. Both my Data III and modded Marantz were better. I felt the Solaris USB sounded like ass.
     
  10. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

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    Will be very interested to hear your thoughts on the Allo DigiOne Sig. vs. Eitr.
     
  11. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    I need to get in touch with @PTS and the rest of the San Pornando gang for our Pho meetups.
     
  12. skem

    skem Friend

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    You guys just keep making more work for me! OK, fine... I'll go back and listen to Solaris with Eitr and Allo now. I already liked it from USB.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
  13. YMO

    YMO Chief Fun Officer

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    I'm curious, what are some the pricey DACs that are using the AKM chips?
     
  14. Vtory

    Vtory Audiophile™

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    Linn and Esoteric's dacs use akm. Probably there are more for sure.
    As I recall, both are priced well above 10k (usd).
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
  15. Vtory

    Vtory Audiophile™

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    I'd confirm this. Tested diy cd transport (dvd-rom based), raspberry-pi diy one, old pioneer dvdp, and eitr. I like built-in usb the best.

    PS. similar conclusion was drawn when tested for rme adi-2 dac last year. So either my ears are deaf or lower transport isn't worth.
     
  16. skem

    skem Friend

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    Ok here are results for Eitr+Solaris.

    Solaris sounds much better to my ears from built-in USB than with Eitr when listening to Thomas Tallis Lamentations I (2004) at 96kHz.

    Eitr makes the choir sound muddy/puffy, exactly like Jitter test file ‘A’ here: http://www.cranesong.com/jitter_1.html

    Music is cleaner and drier without Eitr in the chain, but maybe still a bit crispy like test file ‘E’.

    Testing again with Bill Evans Moonbeams at 44.1kHz, the Solaris by itself has unbearable tape his (this is into M22->HEKv1, which is bright up at the tippy top). Eitr softens the tape hiss, but piano now sounds bloomy and echo-y.

    I have no idea what the correct sound should be, but I can say Eitr is definitely smoothing things over and making them bloomy/rounder/puffy in these particular cases. Again, different jitter, different sound. YMMV.

    FWIW, I have measured alll the DACs in the house with monotones and IMD duotones. From these, I cannot readily discern the difference between Eitr and no Eitr. I can post these measurements if people want to see them, but not sure where is acceptable.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
  17. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

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    Yep I found Eitr slightly smoother, softer, rounder, bloomier than Gen 5 USB direct. But it did take the edge off the highs for me. I could flip flop between which one I preferred depending on the speakers or whether Gungnir Multibit vs Yggdrasil. However with Metrum Onyx, Eitr was way better than going direct USB which was thin and etched and had loads of digititus no matter what it was hooked up to.
     
  18. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

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    Hegel HD30 which is ~$5K uses dual AK4490, and apparently does a decent job with it (at least according Torq and a number of other reviews.)
     
  19. skem

    skem Friend

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    Better vs. different. A subjective decision for sure. I am apparently mister smooth and warm (e.g., I like Adagio), but I find the bloomy quality Eitr imparts to be a negative because it undermines the natural tonality of acoustic instruments.

    Edit: Huh. Now that I think of it, Eitr was making the adagio sharper. So more evidence that Eitr changes things but not in a predictable way.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
  20. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Yeah. I did not like Eitr with either Convert-2 or Solaris DACs. Eitr seems to play with the Gungnir A2 best depending upon the sound you want. I use CD transports most of the time and only use Eitr if I can't find a CD.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019

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