Schiit Saga Thread

Discussion in 'Preamps' started by HitmanFluffy, Feb 2, 2017.

  1. Kratos

    Kratos Rando

    Joined:
    May 6, 2018
    Likes Received:
    3
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    Switzerland
    Thx for your help. I usually use the tube stage. Only had time for a quick test tonight. Couldn't hear a difference between passive and tube. Not sure, because I only listened to a couple of records tonight, but i left Loki switched off this time (it makes the little bit of hum I still have louder) and for some reason the music sounded better to my ears. More natural and less fatiguing. But as I said, for now it's only a short impression. Will do some more tests these days.
     
  2. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

    Friend
    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2017
    Likes Received:
    1,546
    Dislikes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Canada
    A question about input impedance on Saga (which appears to be the same on Freya).

    I was reading a review of the BorderPatrol SE DAC and noticed they recommend a minimum of 20k ohms input impedance on the preamp - I’m wondering if the input impedance of 10k in the Schiit preamps is typical or is this considered low? Also, what does it take to raise the input impedance? Does it do any harm (sonically or otherwise) to add more input impedance (if possible)?
     
  3. Cspirou

    Cspirou They call me Sparky

    Friend
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    4,085
    Dislikes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Irvine,CA
    @rlow - The input impedance is determined by the stepped attenuator since it has a tubed input. Adding additional resistance won't fix this, you would need to change the resistors in the preamp itself.

    Probably better off with something different unless you want to add an additional stage or void the warranty on the Saga.
     
    rlow likes this.
  4. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

    Friend
    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2017
    Likes Received:
    1,546
    Dislikes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Canada
    Ok thanks, thought that might be the situation. To one of my other questions, is 10k considered lower than typical? Could this present an issue for other sources paired with Saga/Freya as well?
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2018
  5. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

    Friend
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2016
    Likes Received:
    1,762
    Dislikes Received:
    21
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Calgary, Alberta
    Home Page:
    10,000 ohm input doesn't seem low to me. Most DACs are going to easily be 500 ohms or less (often less) which shouldn't be an issue at all. For example when impedance matching preamps and power amps, I've often read of the minimum x10 rule, better the x20 (preamp output : power amp input)
     
    rlow likes this.
  6. Cspirou

    Cspirou They call me Sparky

    Friend
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    4,085
    Dislikes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Irvine,CA
    It's typical for a lot of pro amps since it's expected that they are used with a preamp. Also as @msommers says, DAC output impedance is usually pretty low. The Border Patrol DAC has a tubed output so it messes some things up.

    For a preamp though I would say that 10k is on the low end. Using a Magni 3 as a pre would work since it has a 50k input.
     
    rlow likes this.
  7. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

    Friend
    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2017
    Likes Received:
    1,546
    Dislikes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Canada
    Awesome info thanks. I wondered why the BP DAC had such a high output impedance compared to typical. Didn’t realize tubed output drives it up.
     
  8. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

    Friend
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2016
    Likes Received:
    1,762
    Dislikes Received:
    21
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Calgary, Alberta
    Home Page:
    You'll find that's why it can be tricky (sometimes) to match tube-pre's with SS power amps, especially older SS like Pass Labs.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2018
    direstraitsfan98 and rlow like this.
  9. AudioNut

    AudioNut Acquaintance

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2018
    Likes Received:
    29
    Dislikes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    13
    Location:
    Ottawa, ON
    I just thought I'd mention this because I've never seen it posted anywhere, but I can confirm that the opening in the Saga's chassis is wide enough to accept globe-style 6SN7 tubes like the Shuguang Treasure Series SE. It just barely fits, but there is about a millimeter (or a bit less) of spacing all around the tube... the tube doesn't make contact with the chassis.

    (Great tube, by the way. Arguably overpriced, but competitive with the better NOS tubes I've tried, though I've never managed to try a red base RCA, and as a bonus it looks kind of cool.)
     
    Kernel Kurtz likes this.
  10. damaged-goods

    damaged-goods Acquaintance

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2017
    Likes Received:
    50
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Europe
    I'd like to use Saga as attentuator between DAC and headphone amp to increase the range of the amps volume control. My plan is to use the volume control of the amp most of the time and just vary the volume of Saga when needed. Some people seem to be using it with Jotunheim and I'd be curious to read how transparent Saga is in such a setting, especially when using totl amps. The tube will certainly change some things but how much plankton does Saga loose in active/ passive mode. If any.
    I've tried a number of things so far but found nothing realy satisfying (Sys,various attentuators, replaygain preamp).

    Also, are there any technical specs that need to be considered? The DAC has 2,2Vrms out und the amp has 10k Ohm input impedance.
     
  11. StageOne

    StageOne Almost "Made"

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Likes Received:
    128
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    33
    Location:
    US
    I was able to try a Saga with the Jot a few a weeks ago at a meetup. System was Mac - Gungnir Multibit - Saga - Jot - Clears and I struggled to hear a difference with the Saga in active and passive mode. I tried many different songs but could not reliable hear the difference. There is a possibility I could have heard something if it was at home and I had more time, but I think the Saga is very transparent.
     
    damaged-goods likes this.
  12. neogeosnk

    neogeosnk Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2015
    Likes Received:
    555
    Dislikes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Depends on your tube, I could hear a difference in sound-stage and sound signature between modes. Some tubes I couldn't hear any difference at all. I deduced that if you have a neutral tube, no difference. Will post what I'm using when I get home tonight.
     
    damaged-goods and Lasollor like this.
  13. Lasollor

    Lasollor Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2016
    Likes Received:
    276
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Japan
    Personally I couldn’t reliably tell the difference between active and passive mode with the Jotunheim/HD650 regardless of tube (I only compared various NOS tubes.)

    With the HD800/Elekit Tu-8200 combo sometimes I could, and in the end I felt that removing the Saga from the signal path resulted in better clarity.
     
    damaged-goods likes this.
  14. damaged-goods

    damaged-goods Acquaintance

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2017
    Likes Received:
    50
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Europe
    I noticed a loss of clarity and dynamics at various degrees with different attentuators and preamps and wondered where Saga slots in here. Certainly in the good/ very range it seems.
    Thanks vor your observations!
     
  15. StrangeBrew

    StrangeBrew Acquaintance

    Joined:
    May 4, 2018
    Likes Received:
    65
    Dislikes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    NH
    In passive mode I can't hear a difference with Valhalla 2 or liquid spark out of the saga or without.
     
  16. neogeosnk

    neogeosnk Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2015
    Likes Received:
    555
    Dislikes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    My Saga tube is the Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB from Vivatubes.com
     
  17. allegro

    allegro Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2017
    Likes Received:
    281
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Florida
    @damaged-goods I found myself in a very similar situation. The 2.0V output of my new Yggdrasil is too hot for my Kenzie amp which also has an input impedance of 10K ohms (my previous DAC had a volume control.) I had really limited range of the Alps volume pot on the Kenzie. Like you I tried Sys and inline attenuators and could not listen through them.

    I have tried and returned a Tortuga LDR3.V25 passive preamp and also a The Truth unity gain active buffered photocell controlled preamp. I did not care for the sound quality of either. I finally bought a Saga with the optional new made in Russia Tung Sol 6SN7GTB (in retrospect the Saga really should have been my first purchase.)

    Finally I have a solution I can live with that also happens to be a true bargain. I am mainly using the Saga in passive mode as I find switching to the tube buffer causes a midrange bloom and loss of soundstage depth. Sound is more transparent with better imaging in passive mode. So far I think retrieval of low level details in passive mode is excellent.

    Keep in mind I have only been using the Saga for two days with an average tube and I don't know yet how well the Saga responds to rolling in a really good NOS 6SN7GT. I have a 1952 Sylvania 6SN7GT on the way. If the Saga worked for me it most likely will for you also, hope my experience helps.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2018
  18. StrangeBrew

    StrangeBrew Acquaintance

    Joined:
    May 4, 2018
    Likes Received:
    65
    Dislikes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    NH
    Your Kenzie amp sound the same in passive mode through saga ?
     
  19. allegro

    allegro Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2017
    Likes Received:
    281
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Florida
    @StrangeBrew I found a few tracks on Tidal and Qobuz that were recorded at levels low enough I could run the Yggdrasil straight to the Kenzie and get the Alps pot up to 8 AM. Not a large sample but I noticed no degradation in SQ putting the Saga in passive mode into the chain for those tracks. I think it is an excellent passive preamp for my system. I will know more about the SQ of the tube buffer once the Sylvania 6SN7GT gets here. In my experience the tubes Schiit supplies with their gear are OK but not exceptional. If I bought a Saga now I would just go for the included 6N8S. I don't think the Tung Sol 6SN7GTB is worth the extra $25, better to put the money toward a 1950's NOS 6SN7GT.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2019
    StrangeBrew likes this.
  20. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

    Friend
    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2017
    Likes Received:
    1,546
    Dislikes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Canada
    100% agree, the Tung Sol is not really much of an improvement or change over the included tube, it’s a waste of money for Saga. Find a great tube like the Sylvania or many VT-231 instead.
     
    StrangeBrew likes this.

Share This Page