Schiit Unison USB

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by gaspasser, Aug 31, 2019.

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  1. SSL

    SSL Friend

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    But certain people on this 4hum told me that wasapi sucks and sounds bad and ASIO is better.
     
  2. Argopo

    Argopo Facebook Friend

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    @squishware & @Taverius thank you both. Got me on the right path to troubleshoot the problem. I had to change the audio setting in the remote session of the server which allowed me to select the Yggdrasil dac as an output device in JRiver.

    [​IMG]

    Never had to do this before.

    Many thanks! Now I can sleep well tonight.
     
  3. Dzerh

    Dzerh Friend

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    I highly doubt such thing is even possible if we are talking about real drivers.
     
  4. Taverius

    Taverius Smells like sausages

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    Its not.

    They're all software shims that convert ASIO streams to whatever your OS uses natively.

    They work!

    If it's what you need it's the only show in town, and many a musician got their start using them.

    But as you might imagine doing all of it on the CPU means processing and memory needs scales linearly with streams, on top of the client software's demands, so if you send too much at it at once your rig is likely going to face-plant.
     
  5. dllmsch

    dllmsch Friend

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    I was trying the USB out from Pi4 a few days ago to Bifrost 2 and WTF??? Sibilance city! Which is vastly different from the sound I remember from laptop>unison>BF2. I switched it back to the laptop source that I assessed unison before which was foobar>WASAPI(event) and same thing that I remember, under water and masked unenjoyable sound. I tried WASAPI(push) out of curiosity and to my surprise, the sound is much closer to what I heard from Pi4 usb out, the masked feeling is almost gone but the top end is just too aggressive. I guess USB sources do sound difference, or something is fucked up in my wasapi event mode. ASIO4allv2 sound the same to WASAPI(push) tonally but I find WASAPI just a bit more natural? I can't pinpoint what's exactly different.

    I tried to get a 3rd refrence point but find no luck getting my ZX300 to work as a usb source, it worked with Modi Multibit just not bifrost 2.

    So I did some comparison, with music containing less vocal, as I don't want to get bombared by BF2's sibilance.

    5VLPS>Pi2AES>SPDIF>Modi multibit V2>SE into BHA-1 vs Old laptop>foobar WASAPI(event)(which sounded the best to me)>wyrd>unison>Bifrost 2>BAL into BHA1

    I tried to get both source play the same music simultaneously and switch between them with the input switch on BHA-1 + volume adjustment. Maybe wyrd wasn't needed but it was in place when I was trying to get ZX300 to work(needed with modi), didn't bother to swap it.

    They both are really similar tonally, with BF2 having much better oomph, better separation, bigger stage. However, for whatever reason the music from Modi Multibit just move me more(literally dancing with music) and I don't want to switch back. Maybe it's the source? Everything is entirely subjective so YMMV.
     
  6. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    I got so much flak for saying the digital source / transport is 25-65% of the sound coming from a DAC.

    It's simply not SPDIF or AES or USB either. Not enough information there. I'm glad to see better discussion on sources / signal transport these days.
    • SPDIF from my motherboard sounds like ass
    • USB from my old Dell E series laptop sounds like ass
    • USB from a dedicated PCI card from my tower PC sounds good
    • as does USB from a isolated USB port on my Sony Vaio
    • SPDIF from that cheap pro Teac CDP sounds like ass
    • SPDIF from Pi2AES sounds good
    • SPDIF from my Marantz sounds OK
    • SPDIF from same, but mass loaded, CD mechanism reinforced, heftier transformer, and power pulled to non-essential parts, sounds good
     
  7. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

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    Isn’t this easy to check by just putting the Pi2AES on the BF2? I’ll almost guarantee that the RPi and/or old laptop USB is your problem. Plus Unison is just a bit softer and less dynamic, esp so from crappy USB, than the Pi2AES. Pi2AES is more toe tapping and dynamic (better transients that are less rounded off).

    And just don’t use the USB out from an RPi. Just don’t.

    Also you may find this thread of interest: https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...sports-shootout-with-unison-usb-and-aes.8810/
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2020
  8. bixby

    bixby Friend

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    Not too dissimilar to the olden days when people cared a lot about how good the turntable, arm, and cartridge were to good extraction from vinyl.

    Golden rules of thumb for computer based digital audio. In general avoid a laptop ( I used 3-4 of them as main sources and all desktops I have used since sound better) and never store music files for playback on same drive as the OS, blech :eek:.
     
  9. dllmsch

    dllmsch Friend

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    Pi2AES SPIDIF to BF2 dumpstered both combination above, hence I didn't bother to add it into the comparison. My point is just I find SPDIF into Modi Multibit more engaging to me while hearing less(less resolving?) vs laptop unison BF2. And noticing there are differences between usb sources(even different mode in a singler player lol) with unison. I know my laptop usb is not optimal hence this is just an experiment or spot the difference for me, I'm sticking with SPDIF.
     
  10. Yethal

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    If you have the ability to, try unison with a better quality source (sms200, microrendu, usbridge). I noticed a difference between usb out of my desktop pc and usbridge signature (powered with an sbooster lps) even after upgrading from gen5 to unison.
     
  11. Alcophone

    Alcophone Acquaintance

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    Unison is screwy with WASAPI event. I had to change the corresponding WASAPI event buffer settings in foobar2000 to get all sample rates to work. Different sample rates don't like different buffer lengths. Was not needed with any other DAC.

    Here's what I found last year:

    The test files I used are all FLAC in six different sample rates, the 44.1 kHz file I used is in 16 bit format, the rest in 24 bit. Exclusive mode is allowed.

    Computer A: Desktop PC (Windows 10 Home, Version 1903, OS build 18362.388)

    Player: foobar2000 (v1.4.2 and v1.4.8 - same results) with WASAPI plugin (3.3), Buffer length: 1000 ms

    WASAPI (event), Hardware buffer: 25ms (default)
    44 Normal
    48 Choppy
    88 Normal
    96 Choppy
    176 Choppy
    192 Choppy

    WASAPI (push), Hardware buffer: 200ms (default)
    44 Normal
    48 Normal
    88 Normal
    96 Normal
    176 Normal
    192 Normal

    Player: foobar2000 (after update to v1.4.8)

    WASAPI (event), Hardware buffer: 200ms
    44 Choppy
    48 Choppy
    88 Choppy
    96 Choppy
    176 Choppy
    192 Choppy

    WASAPI (event), Hardware buffer: 0ms / 10ms / 20ms
    44 Normal
    48 Normal
    88 Normal
    96 Normal
    176 Normal
    192 Normal

    WASAP (event), Hardware buffer: 21ms
    44 Choppy
    48 Choppy
    88 Choppy
    96 Choppy
    176 Choppy
    192 Choppy

    WASAPI (event), Hardware buffer: 22ms
    44 Choppy
    48 Choppy
    88 Choppy
    96 Choppy
    176 Normal
    192 Choppy

    WASAPI (event), Hardware buffer: 23ms
    44 Choppy
    48 Choppy
    88 Normal
    96 Choppy
    176 Normal
    192 Choppy

    WASAPI (event), Hardware buffer: 24ms
    44 Choppy
    48 Choppy
    88 Normal
    96 Choppy
    176 Choppy
    192 Choppy

    Player: Adobe Audition (12.1.4.5)

    Device Class: WASAPI, Take exclusive control of devices: On, Latency: 30ms and 100ms (same results), Attempt to force hardware to document sample rate: On
    44 Choppy
    48 Choppy
    88 Choppy
    96 Choppy
    176 Choppy
    192 Choppy

    Device Class: ASIO, Device: ASIO4ALL v2, Attempt to force hardware to document sample rate: On
    ASIO4All: Set to Bifrost 2, no latency compensation, Allow Pull Mode: Off, Buffer Offset: 4ms, Always Resample: Off, Force WDM Driver to 16 Bit: Off, ASIO Buffer Size: 512 samples
    44 Choppy
    48 Choppy
    88 Choppy
    96 Choppy
    176 Choppy
    192 Normal

    ASIO4All: As before, but Allow Pull Mode: On
    44 Normal
    48 Normal
    88 Normal
    96 Normal
    176 Normal
    192 Normal

    ASIO4All: As before, but Allow Pull Mode: Off, Buffer Offset: 20ms
    44 Normal
    48 Normal
    88 Normal
    96 Normal
    176 Normal
    192 Normal

    ASIO4All: As before, but Buffer Offset: 10ms
    44 Normal
    48 Normal
    88 Choppy
    96 Choppy
    176 Choppy
    192 Choppy

    ASIO4All: As before, but Buffer Offset: 15ms
    44 Normal
    48 Normal
    88 Normal
    96 Normal
    176 Choppy
    192 Choppy

    ASIO4All: As before, but Buffer Offset: 16ms
    44 Normal
    48 Normal
    88 Normal
    96 Normal
    176 Normal
    192 Choppy

    ASIO4All: As before, but Buffer Offset: 17ms
    44 Normal
    48 Normal
    88 Normal
    96 Normal
    176 Normal
    192 Normal

    ASIO4All: As before, but Buffer Offset: 0ms
    44 Choppy
    48 Choppy
    88 Slightly choppy
    96 Slightly choppy
    176 Normal
    192 Normal

    Computer B: Surface Pro 4 (Windows 10 Pro, Version 1903, OS build 18362.356)

    Player: foobar2000 (v1.4.6 and v1.4.8 - same results) with WASAPI plugin (3.3)

    WASAPI (event)
    44 Choppy (but normal with Yggdrasil A2/Gen5)
    48 Choppy (but normal with Yggdrasil A2/Gen5)
    88 Choppy (but normal with Yggdrasil A2/Gen5)
    96 Choppy (but normal with Yggdrasil A2/Gen5)
    176 Choppy (but normal with Yggdrasil A2/Gen5)
    192 Choppy (but normal with Yggdrasil A2/Gen5)

    WASAPI (push)
    44 Normal
    48 Normal
    88 Normal
    96 Normal
    176 Normal
    192 Normal

    Computer 3: Macbook Pro (15", 2018, macOS Mojave 10.14.6)

    Player: VOX (3.3.12)

    44 Normal
    48 Not tested
    88 Normal
    96 Normal
    176 Normal
    192 Normal

    Computer 4: Samsung Galaxy S10 Plus (Android 9, Kernel 4.14.78)

    Player: USB Audio Player Pro (5.2.8)

    First file (16/44) worked, next file (24/88) produced no audio, subsequently no audio even with 16/44
    Restarted phone, multiple 24/96 files worked in a row, 24/192 produced no audio, subsequently no audio even with 24/96 or 16/44
    So after the first sample rate change, I lose audio. With Yggdrasil A2/Gen5, I continue to have audio after changing sample rates.
    This may be a UAPP problem, my phone also often crashes if I quit UAPP with USB still connected. A crash also happened with a Holo Audio Spring, so this is not Schiit specific. Regular use does not crash this phone. I currently need to restart the phone to allow UAPP to detect when I connect a DAC for the second time.
     
  12. jnak00

    jnak00 Friend

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    I did not do nearly the testing you did, but found the same thing. WASAPI event mode with Unison was basically broken but push mode worked fine.
     
  13. bixby

    bixby Friend

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    I had problems with Windows updates to 1803 and 1903 with my Prism dac. Prism also noted driver issues from users with win 1903 and a particular KB update. This was with both wasapi and some asio. A few weeks later Prism shot me new firmware and control panel with new drivers that solved the issues. They fixed the Microsoft problem on their end.

    I had to use another machine that had a 17xx version to get things to work temporarily while awaiting the fix. Comment from Prism was we'll have to fix it cuz they won't.

    Maybe, just saying, it might be Windows and their updates that damage drivers that is causing some of the problem.
     
  14. Alcophone

    Alcophone Acquaintance

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    And yet it worked with Yggdrasil (USB gen 5) just fine. Which also worked better with UAPP on Android. But I haven't tested it in a while, might be worth a shot.
     
  15. Metro

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    @Alcophone, by "normal" and "choppy", do you mean like a stutter?
     
  16. Alcophone

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    Sounds like a robot :)

    For all audio files linked to below:
    If you are not signed into Dropbox, you can close the blue Dropbox banner on the bottom with the X button on the right, then you can play the audio files.

    I created a few sample files with fromtexttospeech.com and converted them to the respective sample rates:
    44.1 kHz / 48 kHz / 88.2 kHz / 96 kHz / 176.4 kHz / 192 kHz

    Using a Lenovo L13 Yoga running Windows 10 Pro 64-bit 20H2 19042.630, I then played them with foobar2000 1.5.5, foo_out_wasapi 3.3 in WASAPI (event) mode with various WASAPI event buffer settings (File > Preferences > Advanced > Playback > WASAPI > Hardware buffer in MS). The default value is 25 ms. I used the Affix silence plugin to lead with 1 second of silence to give the DAC time to lock on to the changed sample rates.

    I recorded the outcome of various settings with a Bifrost 2 and a Modi Multibit. RCA out into a Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 2nd gen, recorded with Adobe Audition as 16 bit / 48 kHz WAV. Leading and trailing silence manually removed. Converted to FLAC with foobar2000.

    Bifrost 2: 20 ms, 21 ms, 23 ms, 25 ms, 200 ms
    Modi Multibit: 0 ms, 4 ms, 5 ms, 20 ms, 21 ms, 23 ms, 25 ms, 200 ms

    The Modi Multibit behaves as I would expect it: 0-4 ms is too short, though 4 ms sounds much better than 0-3 ms. 5 ms and higher work just fine, and the outcome is the same across all sample rates.
    The Bifrost 2 sounds fine with 20 ms (didn't try less today), but screws up different sample rates at 21/23/25 ms.

    The 200 ms recordings are interesting in that for Modi Multibit each file gets cut off, while for Bifrost 2 only the last one got cut off. If my notes are correct, 200 ms had issues last time, but not this time.
     
  17. jnak00

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    Yup, that's exactly what my Bifrost does in event mode.
     
  18. mrflibble

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    I am using Modius USB with my laptop and it sounds like ass. Compared to SDAC it is at least listenable, however (that was unbearable). Unison does its best to clean up USB but it seems it can only do so much. Perhaps Unison in Bifrost 2 (which has isolation) would be more effective? But reading some of the posts above, perhaps not.

    The sound is as if there is a blanket over everything, this is punctuated by prickly treble and sibilance. I notice it most with blu ray audio. It does not seem so bad with FLAC rips or Spotify. I am using Linux. Blu ray and FLAC are both routed directly to ALSA, Spotify is via PulseAudio.

    Unfortunately, my laptop is the only transport I have at this time (mostly due to space constraints). I was considering an Olimex USB-ISO isolator (ADUM4160), https://www.olimex.com/Products/USB-Modules/USB-ISO/ , as something cheap to try to place in between the laptop and the DAC. Could this be effective? It has a jack for connecting an external PSU.

    Otherwise, I could either invest in RPi4 + Pi2AES + Monitor (to watch blu ray, streaming video etc), or maybe buy a DAC with a better USB implementation (if such a thing exists). I heard good things about the RME ADI-2 DAC's USB, but I don't know how it compares to Unison.

    Any thoughts appreciated. Thanks.
     
  19. ohshitgorillas

    ohshitgorillas Friend

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    I can personally recommend the Pi2AES as being easy to to set up and use, and sounds great. I also use the portable xDuoo X10T II as a transport, which is just a hair behind the Pi2AES in sound quality, if desk space is really precious. On its own, it'll only play files--no streaming--but it also works as a USB to SPDIF/AES converter.

    Hell, you could probably get a boost in performance just by using your phone's USB instead of the laptop. It's been my experience that laptops are as shitty as USB sources can get. Back in the day, I used an old Vaio laptop for years, and when I finally got an Eitr, it was absolutely mind blowing. I literally went from wanting to sell the HD800 for being too dry and clinical, to "you can pry them from my cold dead hands" because they sounded so organic, lively, natural, etc. Night and day.

    Another issue might just be that Modius isn't that good...

    Are you sure that the blu-ray audio output isn't being resampled? ALSA settings are pretty straightforward iirc, but worth double checking.

    EDIT: The post below about USB ports also reminded me, if you can isolate the DAC to its own hub with no other devices on it, that will help. I don't think many laptops have two separate hubs these days, but running as few devices through the hub as you can might help.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2021
  20. Yethal

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    Do you also use the USB port for power? If yes then maybe try using an external PSU and only using the laptop for data
     

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