Shills and softies

Discussion in 'General Audio Discussion' started by m17xr2b, May 25, 2019.

  1. BenjaminBore

    BenjaminBore Friend

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    There’s a big difference between concious and unconcious bias, and whether those things are related to personal audio preferences and experience, or relationships and hopes with or for a manufacturer.

    I do my utmost to detach everything. If the micro-dynamics on one thing are a 6 and the other a 9 then that’s what they are. If it has a flaw then I’ll share it without outside considerations, and provide context where aproppriate. I’m only responsible for one thing, reporting my unfiltered opinion, and it is the only thing in this scenario that I have complete control over and know to be true without a shadow of a doubt.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2019
  2. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

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    This is my take too. Everyone knows Zach is a stand-up and stellar dude, and the company he runs produces a high-quality product. Anyone who says otherwise is straight up trolling.

    The grief I'm sensing is that people can't find, or are not stating, any fault and otherwise mentioning possible perfection? Why? Friendship? High purchase price and getting defensive of paid price? Honeymoon phase? But maybe, and this would be a massive coincidence frankly, that the people who love their ZMF headphones are enamored because the gear they use has great synergy and matches their preferences.

    This happens with other brands as well, but the list is short (Schiit, Massdrop, Eddie Current). The site has obvious preferences. Be aware but don't give a shit because sadly, the reality is you gotta try or buy stuff to know if its for you. I still really want to try a ZMF because it seems like his house-sound carries throughout the line. So you don't necessarily need to drop $1,500 USD to "get a sense of ZMF" or whaever.

    TL;DR - Zach is an awesome dude. Doesn't mean everyone will like his headphones, which are produced 'low n' slow' to meet his very high-standard of quality. People over-the-moon about ZMF headphones should wake the f**k up and realize nothing is perfect.
     
  3. m17xr2b

    m17xr2b Friend

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    I gave ZMF as an example because the thread is quite active and it was on my mind at the time. Stop being a fanboy, whatever brand I'd mention someone would be offended. ZMF is just the latest major hype that somehow outgrew schiit in the last while, quite an achievement tbh. I don't have anything against ZMF, actually I'm hoping for something tuned to my liking if it ever surfaces. Put your pitchfork down Jexby, I come in piece.

    Here's where I disagree. Reading between the lines is useful, as a general rule a closed back doesn't do bass well but then there's the older than me HD250 that splits your skull if you can drive it and puts most open backs to shame for bass quality.
    I get the Eikon is a 8/10 bass for closed cans but a 3/10 considering open backs,planars,IEM etc. a fact omitted in most impressions and I want to know why. It's not shameful but the truth, doesn't make owing it any less impressive and I'm sure this happens quite a bit...lying by omission.
    Before Jexby throws eggs at me I'm giving the Eikon as an example because I owned it for 6 months and know it well.
    I have the same issue when I see DHT SET amps impressions without mentioning the tubes used, the flattery is meaningless and I want to relate and have the full picture.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2019
  4. wormcycle

    wormcycle Friend

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    But how are we going to find out about it?
    The TOTL aficionados are not even paying attention to $500-$1000 range.
    They are well trained by Audeze, Focal, Hifiman etc,..
    Yes there would be some reviews saying "fantastic for the price" which automatically means: if you want something "really good" please spend $4k plus.
     
  5. dark_energy

    dark_energy Friend

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    The bottom line is that heated & opinionated discussions are needed. Critical assessments are needed. *Randos* getting their feelings hurt on SBAF means nothing in the big frame of things. Companies shortcomings need to be discussed here as well(productive feedback). Then there is the risk that better gear might be misrepresented by some amateur mistakes (underpowered gear, low-fi source, bad configuration, limited experience, etc). This is where the member ranking system and like/dislike system comes in.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2019
  6. Jinxy245

    Jinxy245 Vegan Puss

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    I can only answer for myself, which is easy enough
    1) Because I always thought that when reviewing/rating/talking about a closed back, I usually am going to compare apples to apples.
    2) I also assume (cue the old Odd Couple joke ass-u-me) that if anything is unclear, or someone want to know more, they can ask after the fact. I try to be brief in my impressions because I am in no way an expert and feel like concision is most beneficial.
    3) The Eikon's bass doesn'r really bother me very much, and I wouldn't rate it quite so low (especially f you're throwing IEMs in the mix). Again, that's (obviously) my personal preference.
     
  7. mitochondrium

    mitochondrium Friend

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    As long as there is no piece of gear which is perfect in every department I am not sure whether piling more shit on shitty gear and/or lauding the Holy Grail is necessary.
    After all which compromise of non-perfectness is the one you prefer is a matter of taste or priorities.
    One reason I got interested in SBAF was the fact that here you get more information about background not of the gear but the reviewer. Depending on whether Marv, Hands or Torq (just to name a few) like a DAC it will mean different things to different people. Here you will know more about the people who post their opinions, which allows you to put their findings into perspective regarding your own tastes. That to me is more important than being more critical.
    As for perceived value for money that in my opinion is even more individual than taste in gear, one man’s outlandish expensive is another man’s peanuts. For some good enough is good enough others search the Holy Grail.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2019
  8. dark_energy

    dark_energy Friend

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    I agree with the bass part. Ok, let's take HD800 as a comparison. They render bass brilliantly, but they lack extension/quantity down low(so does HD650). Eikons had slightly too much quantity for me, some cup distortion but still stout bass response when well driven. Hmm.. 3 out of 10. Can't agree with that. I think I had like 4-5 days with these. They reproduced intense and impactful bass with weight and good transient. Certain blurriness and compressed sound were there too, which is likely due to closed design. Yes, noticeable coloration.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2019
  9. Metro

    Metro Friend

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    Paging @Psalmanazar...
     
  10. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    I just re-read my ZMF Verite measurements with subjective impressions thread and thought I was pretty damn fair pointing the positives and negatives in a fairly dispassionate manner, and who might not like it.

    Ultimately, there is the FR graph (and two others) which tells us a ton about a headphone. Tonal preferences and tolerances to irregularities is 50-60% of a headphone. A single look and it should be easy enough to say I'm out.

    Finally as far as ZMF, I have plainly stated that some people are just going to barf at the tuning. The thing with ZMF is that for better or worse, does have a certain voicing according to Zach's vision. Because of this, I judge them against that this: how does the execution meet this vision.

    It's like Ultrasone and more recently maybe Grado where we won't don't know what the heck the vision is supposed to be. I can't stand that. Or with A-GD where we get some idea of the vision, but the execution toward it is crap, particularly with the lower and mid priced gears.

    What it comes down to is vision (can we tell that there is one), and execution of that vision.

    Also, somebody already said this. We've matured. I may not agree with vision, but I will tend to judge against the execution.

    Finally speak up. If you heard the ZMF cans and don't like their voicing, just tell us that you dislike the ZMF house sound. I wouldn't be butthurt about it even though I have the Verite on my desk at work. I don't think other ZMF fanboys would be hurt either.

    But really, what's the point when the FR graph and others are there naked in plain view for everyone to see.

    As far as pricing. I've given up. $2k DACs that sound good are a good deal. I used to more be budget minded, but everyone then called me a Schiit or Drop shill. Or if I recommended China nobsound Class A 10W amps, no one paid attention. Or a noob recommends a China balanced tube hybrid that gets all this attention but I think sounds like shit. In the end, I don't give a f**k.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2019
  11. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    And as far as headphones, folks really need to pay attention to the measurements or ask me or any of the other guys to overlay FR plots. Or more details aspects of sound upon further study (alternate CSD visualizations, etc.)

    Measurements don't tell the whole story, but FR, CSD, and HD (2nd and 3rd) tell us a shitload. This is because the errors are gross with transducers.

    I've said this before and will say it again: I am saddened that folks are paying less and less attention to measurements and just seem to want to be told what to buy. I know this via site analytics.

    What always makes me happy is when someone sees the measurements and notes certain things that they will not like, they say "No thanks, I'm out."

    THE GROSS ERRORS OF HEADPHONES WILL BE INDICATED IN THE TRIFECTA (FR, DISTORTION, CAD) OF MEASUREMENTS 98% OF THE TIME.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2019
  12. winders

    winders boomer

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    That's odd. What if his vision is all fucked up? Why would you judge then against anything other than what would be your ideal? That would include what you consider ideal measurements and ideal sound characteristics. If you judge ZMF headphones against Zach's vision and you judge other headphones by other criteria, how can we read what you write about various headphones and correlate?
     
  13. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    @winders: stop being an idiot and arguing for the sake of arguing. You've seen my reviews and impressions and how I approach it.

    Your value in this thread is -57.

    So are you REALLY so f'ing dumb that I need to spell things out to you with examples.
     
  14. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Okay you fricking moron:

    I think highly of Grado RS1 and RS2s. Not what I would listen to with most recordings. But with John Grado's vision (not Joe's) I would not hesitate to recommend them for those inclined towards their tonal response and low bass limitations. Their strengths are transient response, woody decay, efficiency, and lively sound.

    I actually like the CF Atlas. It's quite U-shaped. Again, not something I would use with every recording. The sibilance is notable even on voices in video conference calls. However, the edge that goes along with this seems to be taken off a little. For CF's U-shaped response IEMs (I think the Andro, Orion, and Solaris are CF aberations), the Atlas represents the best of that vision so far, an improvement from the Vega which was almost there.

    If one really likes the peculiarities of the PCM1704 sound, then the AG-D Master 7 using the i2s input from USB conversion is the way to go. Although AG-D sucks with the digital filters results in a soundstage with zero depth, at least the soundstage is located far from the listener. Headphone listeners will appreciate this. The Master 7 with the i2s easily outdoes the last iteration of the megabuck Wadia PCM1704 DACs.

    Aegir: let me find the text messages to Jason asking him to take the Continuity circuit of the Lyr 3, put it into Vidar, and then run the fricking thing in Class A. Talk about vision? It's entirely possible that Jason could have fucked this up. Prototype was good, not so good after comparing to my SET amps. Production amps blew me away.
     
  15. winders

    winders boomer

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    Actually, I have never read a ZMF review by you and was going by what you wrote. I have read many of you reviews and could not think of an example where you judged anything based on the vision of the designer. That’s why I asked.

    Edit: I have seen you include in reviews text saying things about particular sound characteristics and how devices match up to that. If that is what you were talking about then I misunderstood and apologize for not seeing that as the same thing.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2019
  16. Zhanming057

    Zhanming057 Friend

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    I'm going to come out swing in defense of, among all brands, Ultrasone (gasp). Their "mainsteam" lineup has always featured consistent performance on extra-weak sources. If for some reason you absolutely had to drive a pair of high end cans with an iPhone 4S, I'm not sure you can do much better than something with S-logic. When you actually look at wattage requirements at earpoint, those cans are as efficient as efficient-ish IEMs.

    I have a soft spot for them, as I got to know Ken over a Edition 9 recabling way back in 2009. And the closed-backs do have a legit usecase, students living in dorms or people who are constantly on the road and don't care to use a portable amp. That said some of their experimentations (Edition 10,12, 15 closed) are a bit too horrifying even for me.

    Grado is also all over the place, but with neither the comfort nor the palladium-encrusted Bavarian decadence. Funny thing is, the only unabashed Grado fan I've ever met is my SO. Recently tried to get her onto the Mysphere wagon, and her response was "this is wonderful, I'll stick with the PS1000e". People are like that.

    I've briefly tried a couple ZMF's. Nice cans with a lot of things to like, but sound didn't quite gel for me on all of them. If I can find them at a dealer with a system that I'm familiar with, I'd love to give them a serious shot.
     
  17. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    1. Convert-2. Sounds totally different from DACs I would typically keep (Theta, Sonic Frontiers, and Schiit). Vivid mode when I like Cinema mode, but cool, I like this. They took their lower line DAC and concluded with this. Righteous tone and timbre though.
    2. X-Sabre Pro. For those who like a good gin neat, which I don't necessarily do. However, worthy of praise.
    3. ZMF: Do you think any of my speakers or any of my other headphones (Verum, HD6xx modded, HD800 modded to sound like HD6xx) actually sound anywhere as tonally colored as the ZMF cans?
    4. Crane Song Solaris DAC. Polar opposite of Convert-2. Analytical and bright on the wrong system. Worthy of mention, a soundstage to die for.
    5. Drop MOVE. Would have preferred better closer to TOTL technicalities, but appreciated neutralish FR in a extremely easy to use and comfortable package. Being spoiled on top notch BA or DD/BA sound, but heck, Christian pulled it off. Everything from the Weezer Teal album to the Pixies sounds good enough.
    6. Metrum Amethyst: NOS is not my thing, but highly recommended this.
    7. Planars: Like @OJneg, I fricking HATE planars and you will NEVER see me ever run a planar or ribbon speaker. Yet the same time, noted good qualities (all different) of the LCD2C, LCD4, Verum, and Ether 2.
    @winders: you need to go back to the Changstar days where I would crap on stuff that didn't immediately meet my specific preferences. My approach is different now. Doesn't do anyone any good if I can only speak to my specific preferences.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2019
  18. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Now let's look at the converse:
    1. Singularity 19: wtf was this? I've listened to a lot of higher end A-GD DACs, but this fails so hard. Not sure what it's trying to do. 1/3 the price for 1/20 the vision.
    2. Metrum Menuet: wtf was the Metrum dude thinking? One step forward in the vision, but two steps back. Not even sure if this could be called a Metrum DAC.
    3. HD700: wtf. Worse than HD800 frequency response but with HD6** technicalities. Huh? Help me understand the vision here? A run at the Beyer T1 customers?
    4. NuPrime STA-9. wtf . Purposely adding second order harmonics to insipid class D doesn't make it have tube amp microdynamics and nuance. Vision failed.
    5. Denafrips Terminator. Brute force to discrete ladder architecture of low line models panned by SBAF DAC staff can only get you so far. Vision partially met, but ultimately a fail because a Metrum Pavane actually meets that vision for the same price or one can get the same from Soekris for $4000 less.
     
  19. winders

    winders boomer

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    Like I said in my edit above:

    I have seen you include in reviews text saying things about particular sound characteristics and how devices match up to that. If that is what you were talking about then I misunderstood and apologize for not seeing that as the same thing.
     
  20. Elnrik

    Elnrik Super Friendly

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    Ultrasone, Grado, and ZMF don't need defending. This thread isn't about gear.
     

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