Sins of Omission vs Sins of Commission

Discussion in 'General Audio Discussion' started by purr1n, Jul 27, 2022.

  1. yotacowboy

    yotacowboy McRibs Kind of Guy

    Friend
    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2016
    Likes Received:
    7,435
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    NOVA
    Home Page:
    I'm reminded of the "chamber pot/urn" discussion. The two are very similar vessels. The value we attribute to each depend on what they contain, and where they're placed.
     
    • Epic Epic x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agreed, ditto, +1 Agreed, ditto, +1 x 1
    • List
  2. rhythmdevils

    rhythmdevils MOT: rhythmdevils audio

    Friend
    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2020
    Likes Received:
    10,448
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    Home Page:
    I think we can all agree that your mom is a sin of commission.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Epic Epic x 2
    • Agreed, ditto, +1 Agreed, ditto, +1 x 1
    • List
  3. ChaChaRealSmooth

    ChaChaRealSmooth Damsel in distress, ZMF Whore

    Staff Member Friend Gearmaster
    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2018
    Likes Received:
    8,709
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Avalon
    I talked about this a bit in my profile post, but I'll share a personal experience that relates to this.

    Back when I didn't know better, I was running a Drop X Grace SDAC and a Liquid Platinum. The SDAC got replaced by a Matrix X-Sabre, which was a better match for the Liquid Platinum and just plain better than the humble SDAC. I thought life was good.

    Then I had the pleasure of going to a SBAF meet for the first time. It was a lot of fun, but I realized some things; my system sucks in comparison to some of the rigs there, and my goodness DNA amps are awesomesauce! This was the start of me borrowing the Starlett prototype for audition, which proceeded to infect me with longing to own such an amp. Under no circumstances did I want to use the Liquid Platinum again in comparison to the Starlett.

    The point of all this is to say that until we heard or know better ("better" being both in regards to technicalities and one's personal preferences) it's impossible to say in regards to sins of commission or omission.

    That being said, I think it's safe to say that most members who have been around SBAF for a while at least have an idea about system synergy and have a system that brings them joy. Intentionally or not we all have stuff that fits our tastes in terms of commission vs omission.

    I might get crucified over this one:
    DSHA-3F vs DNA Starlett
     
    • Like Like x 5
    • Epic Epic x 1
    • Agreed, ditto, +1 Agreed, ditto, +1 x 1
    • List
  4. Erroneous

    Erroneous Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    May 15, 2016
    Likes Received:
    2,111
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Texas
    But your dad is a sin of omission. You really think it takes 32 years to get a gallon of milk from the corner store?
     
  5. purr1n

    purr1n Burned out

    Staff Member Friend BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    82,522
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    I thought dads committed sins of emission.
     
    • Like Like x 5
    • Epic Epic x 4
    • Agreed, ditto, +1 Agreed, ditto, +1 x 1
    • List
  6. Senorx12562

    Senorx12562 Case of the mondays

    Friend
    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2015
    Likes Received:
    3,058
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Bird-watcher's paradise
    Rimshot.
     
  7. Friday

    Friday Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2015
    Likes Received:
    473
    Trophy Points:
    63
    I'm realising that my interpretation of omission vs comission is quite different from many other members here. I have been seeing them instead as effects that are complementary to FR i.e. whether the gear fails to even pick up information such as staging, textures, decay etc or if it adds extra elements to these factors like extra vibrato or mellowness and so on; the FR subsequently decides how distorted the available information is when it is presented to the listener (I know this is not how sound reproduction actually works, it's just my own mental model of it). Eg. You can have tipped up treble in the ATH-M50 but I consider it to be committing sins of omission relative to the HD650 because the former is actually less detailed (less resolving of textures and nuances). Within this interpretation, I definitely lean towards sins of comission.
     
  8. Wilewarer

    Wilewarer Facebook Friend

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2021
    Likes Received:
    166
    Trophy Points:
    33
    Location:
    Chicago
    One of the most common headphone sins of omission is staging, and really most of us just deal with that to some extent because they're headphones and we can only expect so much.

    I thought my answer would be that I don't care a ton about commission, but then I realized that most of what I disliked about Modi 3+ is commissive to me. Urns ahoy.
     
    • Agreed, ditto, +1 Agreed, ditto, +1 x 1
    • List
  9. Lyander

    Lyander Official SBAF Equitable Empathizer

    Friend
    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2017
    Likes Received:
    9,154
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Pasig, Philippines
    My read on the whole thing is effectively like @Friday's in that while FR can certainly inform a lot of perception in audio gear (midrange recession on the Klipsch HP-3 burying some usually-overt details in bass, overly forward presentation on the (vintage) Grado RS1 nerfing ability to convey room cues), there are characteristics that manifest independently from FR.

    I've gotten to try some nice things over the years but am decidedly stuck in mid-fi land. That said, I've been in and out of wanting "nice" audio since I was in high school circa 2008 and, economic kersplunkery notwithstanding, there's a lot more you can get for comparable amounts of money (especially if you buy basically everything used :p).

    I sold the Bifrost Multibit A1 a while back cuz finances and currently rock a Modi 3+. The AKM Modi resolves a crapton more gross information than the older Bifrost ever did, but I'd be lying if I said that I didn't miss how more weirdly immersive the old MB DAC was, FR notwithstanding. I think that in my case it's a running theme that I've been willing to tolerate strange voicing for the most part as long as there's resolution to back it up, but that's changing a bit lately.

    LMAO @Wilewarer you posted that while I was drafting this up. Yeah the Modi does a lot but while it's a heck of a solid buy regardless, there is ironically something yet to be desired from it despite its being, on paper, great (big headstage, gobs of resolution, "nice" tonal balance).
     
  10. joch

    joch Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2015
    Likes Received:
    257
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    the other side of the big ocean
    I'm not sure if it's an either/or thing with commission/omission. There will always be elements of each, and at best you're dealing with the minimum bearable amounts of commission or omission. Let's face it, as humans, we're always gonna find ways to find some fault with something no matter how great or crappy it is. We like to complain. We think we can be objective. We are biased. Sometimes I think we should just enjoy stuff for what it is*.

    *Feel free to complain about any commissions or omissions if you're not getting perceived value for the exorbitant amount you paid. The higher the cost/expectation, the less bearable they are. $1500 IEMs that sound like meh...rant away. $15 IEMs that sound like meh...it is what it is.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agreed, ditto, +1 Agreed, ditto, +1 x 2
    • List
  11. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

    Friend BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    1,974
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Estonia
    Sins of omission for spiritual zen - be useless and be content with it.
    Want to get stuff done? You will make mistakes.
    Aspirations in biology and society vs being a spiritually whole being.
    Neither is right way or wrong way.
    Music belongs to the realm of aspirations in biology and society - it points to the sins of commission (tubes, class A, ladder dac, turntable, silk domes, bass reflex, acoustic and analogue electronic instruments, real vocals, simple recording chain, minimally treated room, live recording).

    I was approached by this guy in MOC show wrt our flagship speakers, pressing for explanations by Klippel etc measurements and such.
    Must be painful to exist in that way - can't enjoy music, because the systems 'approved by measurements only' (sins of omission galore) won't give you any and belief in the approach denies any hope to enjoy the systems that sing.
     
  12. Claritas

    Claritas Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2015
    Likes Received:
    1,377
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Raleigh
    Here's an extreme case that I find clarifying. Would you rather use a transducer that's rolled off on both ends, or one that's boosted on both ends? (We might call that question a frown-faced FR vs a smiley-faced FR, but those names might add bias. So I'll call it a yarmulke vs an upside-down yarmulke.)

    I have a strong preference in life for those things that lack that special something but don't do anything all that wrong, over things that are special in some respect but have obviously disturbing aspects. As I put it, "Wow! becomes Ow!"

    As a counterpoint, an old lady I knew who was almost a saint once told me that she agreed with Odgen Nash:
    "No, you never get any fun
    Out of the things you haven't done....
    if some kind of sin you must be pursuing,
    Well, remember to do it by doing rather than by not doing."

     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2022
  13. purr1n

    purr1n Burned out

    Staff Member Friend BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    82,522
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    It can go both ways. What I found interesting at the recent Texas show is people preferring headphones like the Grado Hemp (F-cushion), HD650, HD580, Atrium, Mini C, etc.

    Some people liked the modded HD800s, but for the most part, highly technical but screwy sounding is out, which is a little bit of a surprise compared to years past. Utopia was probably the brightest hi-end headphone there, but even then, it's not that screwy.

    Mind you, a lot of this could be local tastes, or that a lot of guys have gotten into speakers, so their priority is to spend on two-channel rather than headphones.

    Or maybe people are getting more experienced and don't hear edgy transients or bright signatures as high-fidelity.
     
  14. insidious meme

    insidious meme Ambivalent Kumquat

    Friend
    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2015
    Likes Received:
    4,648
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Sector 8023 of the Third Quadrant
    This is a sin of commission. Putting this imagery in ppl's heads.

    This is when those dads missed.

    I'm with the it depends crowd. Sure we can ruminate on its occurrence and how it came to be, but in the end you deal with it regardless of origin.
     
  15. ChaChaRealSmooth

    ChaChaRealSmooth Damsel in distress, ZMF Whore

    Staff Member Friend Gearmaster
    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2018
    Likes Received:
    8,709
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Avalon
    I'm actually quite intrigued by this. Grado Hemp and HD 580/650 don't have what I'd call immediate impressiveness (aka they don't have that "wow" factor in meets/first audition). On the other hand, I'm not surprised about Atrium at all; plenty to be immediately impressed about.

    Something about the Utopia is almost always appealing/impressive in meet conditions. Maybe it's that transient overshoot? It certainly sounds mega-fast (overall I'd still say it's a fast driver)
     

Share This Page