Sonic Frontiers SFD-1mk2 Vintage DAC for $750 That Stomps Most Modern DACs

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by purr1n, Nov 9, 2015.

  1. Mr.Sneis

    Mr.Sneis Friend

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  2. smithyy

    smithyy New

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    Some SFD-1 MKii impressions.

    I'm so thankful that I found this dac. Like some others I turned to NOS because the modern OS dacs I heard did something to the high end that always troubled me and led to fatigue. This thankfully isn't the case with the SF. I can listen to it all day and have done since I received it. Once again, vintage wins out and provides ridiculously good value and a sound that I much prefer over its modern counterparts. I'm now running a vintage dac and vintage speaker amp and can't ever see that changing. Nothing seems to nail tone like vintage gear.

    I used stock tubes, a pair of National 6922, made in the USSR, longer than I wanted because I didn't have the correct sized screwdriver at hand. As soon as I was able to I switched to the Amperex 7308, which I was lucky enough to find cheap. Biggest difference is that everything sounds more balanced, sound is more 3D, and its wonderfully smooth highs.

    My two favourite things about the SF are its soundstage and presentation. Everything is presented in front of you and the
    MKii lets you pick it out instead of forcing it onto you, everything just flows effortlessly. The sound has this 3D quality to it and I get an excellent sense of the recording space. I'm enveloped in sound and it's truly addictive.

    I find that the SF is a bit of a genre master, managing to sound good with everything I threw at it. I'd say that upper mids are a touch forward, which is something I've always preferred. Impressive control, a black background, lyrics are very intelligible, fantastic micro and macrodynamics are all other things I've found. I'd say that all these qualities are still retained at low level listening.

    I find that after 1 hour it's listenable, 4-5 hours it comes into its own, and probably improves the longer it is left on. I say probably because music always sounds better to my ears at night when it's quiet and I'm in a different headspace, so it's hard to say with confidence.

    I'm happy to say that I've got a SFD-2 MKii on my way so the SFD-1 will undoubtedly be sold. I'll need to pick up one of those Jensen devices to run it balanced, though.

    I also thought I hit jackpot by managing to find a Spectral SDR-2000 at an excellent price, which by all accounts is meant to be one of the very best dacs ever made, going head to head with what is considered THE dac, the much more expensive Levinson 30.6, but it wasn't to be. It would've been interesting to hear how SF gear would stack up, but it was sold just a few days ago. Probably for the best considering I've heard it runs so hot that its feet literally melt off and components inevitably need to be replaced. Would cost a fortune alone in shipping with what I think is a 40kg dac with the power supply from the UK to the USA and back.

    Besides the Spectral and Levinson (v. expensive), some other classics I would like to try are the Zanden 5000 Mk.IV (v. expensive), Lavry Gold and Sonic Frontiers Processor 3. I wonder if anyone else here has any experience with them.
     
  3. Walderstorn

    Walderstorn Friend

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    I am also interested on the difference between both of them (and, if possible, comparing to Gungnir Multibit).
    I read what people wrote bu it still wasnt a sonic comparison so my doubts remain. Dont know if @purr1n or someone that had both can shed some light into it.
     
  4. h2rulz

    h2rulz New

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    So, I got about a month (a minimum for me to fully know how a gear sounds) of listening with the SFD1-MK2. I won't dare to leave a review with my untrained ears, but I do want to share my findings with regards to finding the best/budget way of getting good sound from my iMac to the DAC. Just note that I'm talking in relative terms between the different setups.

    Here's, how I got to hear the SFD1 in chronological order, with at least a week or two of listening for each.
    Headphones used - HD800 (SDR), LCD3 2016, HD6XX

    iMac > USB > Schiit Eitr > digital coax > SFD1 > coax / XLR > EC BW / Master 9
    With mixed expectations as a longtime Bifrost Multibit user, the difference in soundstage is the first thing I notice. It has this distant soundstage that I'm not used to, Mids are a hair thin relative to Bifrost Multibit. Bass is good. I don't know why but I wasn't expecting much from the bass because of the tubes in the SFD1, but I enjoy the clarity, detail and extension in bass. Highs might be rolled off in the extreme end. There's slight less splash/clash in the cymbals relative to the Bifrost Multibit. But, all in all nothing bothers me treble wise (I am sensitive to the 2-4k, and 6-8k region). I'm just confused with it sounding "brighter" than expected. No, its not a bright DAC by any means, but I was expecting something more tubey, especially the mids. At this point, I'm splitting hairs in determining if I can conclusively consider it to be "better" than the Bifrost Multibit. And I'm wondering if this 'distant' sounding soundstage is what everyone has been praising the SFD1 for?


    iMac > USB > Schiit Eitr > digital coax w. BNC adapter > Sescom impedance converter > AES/EBU2 > SFD1 > coax / XLR > EC BW / Master 9
    After about a week with the above, I finally get a RCA to BNC adapter and a Sescom BNC to AES impedance adapter ($20). As I unpack the Sescom adapter goes flying across our tiled floor and hits the ground hard. Schiit, I'm thinking 'it better not be damaged.' Expecting the worse (no sound), I hook everything up. Yes, I get sound, but wait its noticeably different. Everything sounds relatively upfront and the mids get a boost (not thin anymore), the rest sound similar to the best of my knowledge. I gave it at least another week or two, and in the end I find it harder to get back to the relatively thin sounding previous setup, despite the more intimate soundstage. Also there was this last bit in mids detail that I struggle to find. Hmm, I'm wasn't too sure if what I'm hearing lines up with the impressions other left in this thread. Also, I'm not sure if the Sescom adapter fully survived the hard drop (although unlikely).


    iMac > USB > Schiit Eitr > digital coax w. BNC adapter > Neutrik impedance converter > AES/EBU2 > SFD1 > coax / XLR > EC BW / Master 9
    With a constant suspicion of damage to the Sescom adapter, I cave in and go ahead and order a Neutrik NADITBNC-MX ($50) just to scratch that lingering itch. Again, I don't expect much in change. Surprise, I'm wrong again. The soundstage has opened up (its not the distant soundstage I heard with the first setup), the mids while still having body sounds clear and detailed. Bass is relatively tighter, detailed, and better extension (or at least its easier to hear the lower frequencies). Overall, I enjoy the improved imaging where everything is better positioned in space with better clarity. With pretty much everything improved, music is more holographic with a better sense of clean(dark) space. This is more like the SFD1 I read about.


    So, in the end, I arrived at the same conclusion as others have already said, AES is better than coax/rca - no surprise. If you're on a limited budget, invest in a Schiit Eitr ($179), and a BNC to AES impedance adapter (Neutrik $50/Sescom $20). With about $200-230 (not including cost of cables and the negligible cost of a RCA to BNC adapter) I believe you can get the most out of the SFD1-mk2, and is a worthwhile investment over just going coax.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2021
  5. mscott58

    mscott58 Friend

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    Looks like @SirBashALot might need to be renamed "SirFlipALot" as he appears to be selling both the SFD-1 MkII he bought from @Luckbad and the CD-60 he bought from @shotgunshane on Canuck Audio Mart.

    SFD-1 Mk II is up for 999 CAD (~$770 US), but not sure what he paid for it -

    http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649441317-sonic-frontiers-sfd1-mkii/

    CD-60 is up for 450 CAD (~$350 US), which he looks to have bought here for $275.

    http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/deta...capped-and-set-to-nos-mode-with-tda1541-chip/

    http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/philips-cd-60-with-tda1541-in-nos-mode.5742/

    Is at least nice enough to split shipping with the buyer...

    Call out to @Ziva for catching the CD-60 flip.

    @SirWhateverTheHeckHeIs would appear to at least owe @Luckbad and apology for making the exception on his sale of the SFD-1 MkII, especially as the message above is his only post on SBAF, with the promised impressions never having been shared with the thread.
     
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  6. SirBashALot

    SirBashALot New

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    Hello,
    I paid more than $275USD for the CD-60 and I also paid taxes upon arrival of the player. All in it cost me $450CAD. Furthermore, I usually get many people lowballing me so I am planning for that.

    In regards to not sharing impressions, I refrain from sharing my views because I don't believe I am experienced enough to share impressions. I understand that anything I share may have influence on other people and since I don't trust my experience in this hobby to do so, I will refrain from doing so until further notice. I hope my lack of participation is not viewed in a negative light. If this community requires more of my participation, then I would be happy to do so with the disclaimer my comments to be taken with a grain of salt.

    If anyone in this community would like to purchase any of the listed items, I would be happy to provide a better deal on either. I believe that would be fair since I was presented with the opportunity to purchase them here.

    I don't appreciate people jumping to conclusions. I would prefer if you approach a situation in an inquisitive manner. Be curious not furious and judgemental usually pans out better.
     
  7. mscott58

    mscott58 Friend

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    Hallelujah, a second posting!

    If you don't want people jumping to conclusions, and if you think that posting was "furious", well then you don't know us too well. |\/|

    But more seriously, thanks for the post and the offer to the SBAF community. Would also be cool if you introduced yourself in the appropriate thread sometime so we can have at least a bit more background on you.

    And please do share your impressions. There's no way better way to start calibrating yourself then raising some thoughts up the flagpole and seeing the reaction you get.

    And finally would have been great if you'd been proactive in sharing this offer to the community you bought the items from, as many here are super-sensitive to flip-for-a-buck Randos, who we see far too often.

    Cheers

    PS - Now back to our regularly scheduled SFD-1 thread, sorry for going OT
     
  8. SirBashALot

    SirBashALot New

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    Haha alright matey.

    The curious not furious is something a mentor of mine taught me in the past that stuck with me. I don't mean it in the literal sense. It reminds me to always strive to learn and understand something regardless of how it makes me feel at first encounter.

    I shall oblige to both your requests; introducing myself and offering the sale of both items.

    Finally, in regards to sharing my impressions, I shall entertain the idea of doing so. I honestly don't have the most discerning ears. I simply know what I like when I hear it. Nonetheless, I appreciate the encouragement.

    EDIT: I don't seem to have sufficient privileges to post in the sale forum. I would gladly sell either item to anyone in this community at a discounted price.
     
  9. Druid

    Druid Hyperactive Tree

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    So I saw a California Audio Labs Delta CD Transport on Ebay for $150 and figured, why not? It has an AES out so I figured it was worth a try. I'm glad I did. While I've never experienced skipping, digitus or fuzz per say, it now seems that the Lynx E22 card holds back my SFD-2 somewhat, especially in the treble. I'm noticing more clarity and definition, more sparkle in the treble, but not so much that I get fatigued using my modded HD800. I also tend to listen to entire albums much of the time, so listening directly from the disc suits me. My only worry is that being a vintage transport, that it will croak sooner rather than later, but at this price, that's not too big a deal.
     
  10. crazychile

    crazychile Eastern Iowa's Spiciest Pepper

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    I've kept this quiet until now, not wanting to play the " I used to work for company X so I know a lot" card (because I don't), but I worked at CAL for a number of years and am happy to help people that may have any questions on the old products. I've forgotten a lot since then but do have some notes and info still that might help people out if they have any specific issues. I've noticed that CAL stuff isn't popular around here but then again it's pretty old and largely forgotten.

    Anyway, the Delta was a great transport that wasn't taken very seriously IMO because it was affordable and pretty plain looking. If you ever have a problem with it that isn't laser related, it will likely be the spindle motor that goes out. I don't have any specific part numbers but the part might still be available (Made by Matsushita) or a substitute might exist.
     
  11. Streamline

    Streamline New

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    Can anyone point me to a schematic? I have a SFD-1 MKII with a signal lock but no sound. When I try to play an HDCD disc, the HDCD indicator does not light up. (The HDCD indicator does flash briefly at power up, then goes out.) I already reached out to PcX but I am wondering: is there any hope of servicing this myself?
     
  12. Mr.Sneis

    Mr.Sneis Friend

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    If you put a little pressure on top of the ua2000 or digital filter module does anything happen?
     
  13. Streamline

    Streamline New

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    No, nothing happens. The input select switch is phyiscally broken; I'm assuming it's stuck on coax, because the signal lock light does track connecting/disconnecting the coax. The amp starts up, and then 45 seconds later I do hear the relay click in, so all that seems to be working ok. I've also made sure the transport is fine by using it with another DAC. But maybe the input selector switch is lying/really broken. How would that 6-terminal switch be wired?

    Still waiting for PcX to get back to me...
     
  14. smithyy

    smithyy New

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    I thought I'd do a write-up of 4 dacs I had in my possession: SFD-1 MK2, SFD-2 MK2, MHDT Orchid, Mosaic T.
    Be forewarned, I ramble a bit and go off on a tangent. Not sure if this is the best place for this post, so a mod can move it if he wants.

    I should probably preface this by stating where my preferences lie. Width and depth, a 3D soundstage are nice at times, and impress me at first, but ultimately are not of much concern and never win out. If we're talking about 3Dness, I'm more concerned with instruments themselves sounding 3D. Pinpoint imaging is the very lest of my concerns.

    I value tone/body/weight (whatever you want to call it), dynamic range and the ability to reproduce low-level information/plankton the most in that order. I'm not a "Hi-Fi" fan.

    I find that listening to acoustic music is the best measure, as it is hardest to reproduce. The live acoustic version of Hotel
    California is great for this, and Radio 1 Live Lounge sessions too, given that there are hundreds of them. If I can close my eyes, feel like I'm there and can suspend disbelief that what I'm listening to is a recording, I know I'm onto a winner. Most the music I listen to is amplified though.


    SFD-1 MK2: I'll keep it short on the SFD-1 because it can pretty much be described in the same vain as the SFD-2 but does everything to a lesser extent in terms of its technicalities. Besides this it has a warmer sound signature and gives more body to instruments. Due to tonality being my number one priority, I prefer it to the SFD-2.

    SFD-2 MK2: I must say that I was a bit disappointed in this dac until I changed tubes, preferring its younger brother.
    I originally used a pair of Amperex 7308 tubes and can see why they're considered the ultimate, but was more distracted by their qualities in this dac more than anything else. They did all those Hi-Fi things that took me out of the music instead of into it. Swapping to a GB pair of Mullard ECC88 was a better fit.

    In general I would describe the SFD-2 as having the more neutral sound signature and found it to excel in imaging and separation. It also has the widest and deepest soundstage and is more resolving. If this was an exercise in intellectual or analytical listening the SFD-2 would win.
    In terms of qualities I value the most the SFD-2 is excellent at resolving low-level information. Its presence doesn't sound quite as complete or full in tone. Its coherency and its dynamic range are also not quite to my preference. In this I mean the flow of the music and also the way in which instruments and their notes are integrated into the sound as whole instead of a bunch of components is again good, very good in fact - but I find myself being distracted and unable to fully sink into the music. Notes are more so presented at the same volume which is an issue I've found in all OS dacs I've heard.


    By the way, if you manage to get a hold of Vacuum Tube Valley Magazine you will see that they rank the Amperex 7308 PQ first, Siemens 6DJ8 (1960s W. Germany) second, and the the 10M Mullard ECC88 (1960s British) 3rd. Any difference between a tube having the 10M label or not is up for debate. From the magazine:

    7308 (US-PQ 1973) - Glorious,
    involving and well-balanced with very
    smooth highs. We also listened to a 1968
    version of the 7308 P Q which was very
    musical and live sounding. Lots of air,
    smooth and pleasant sounding. A great
    sounding tube!

    Mullard 10M - 60J8/ECC88 (1960s British)A
    natural, musical and sweet sounding
    tube. Highs were smooth and not sibilant

    Siemens 6PI8 (1960s West German) -
    Balanced sound, smooth and detailed.
    This tube does almost everything right.

    Also For those on a budget, the JAN/Philips
    60j8 and 6922 are capable of good
    sound at a reasonable price.


    Orchid - This is a dac that I've always very much liked but didn't quite fully appreciate and realise just how much it did
    so much of everything I was looking for right until I had the two Sonic Frontiers dacs in my possession at the same time to
    directly compare, especially considering how highly regarded they are and their all-time classics status.

    The Orchid is a NOS dac and @Hands has an excellent write-up somwhere about the differences between NOS and OS dacs. It uses the TDA1541A (R1) chip. Much has been written about the TDA1541A and I'll let others wax (even more) lyrical about it: good write-up here. I will say that there are a few variations of the chip with the S1 and S2 considered to be the ultimate.

    Presence with its complete, full tone - check; low level information - check; coherency and dynamic range - check.
    It doesn't have the width and depth of stage compared to the SF dacs, nor does it have the pinpoint imaging. The Orchid's resolution and ability to resolve low level information wasn't obvious at first because details are more integrated into the track, which also makes the dac more musical and rhythmically appealing.
    It doesn't do all those fancy things like pinpoint imaging, but rather gives me a good idea of the space the musician is in. I can choose to focus on a particular instrument if I want to as this is entirely up to me otherwise I just let the music wash
    over me and sink into it.
    I can turn the volume down and I don't feel like I'm missing anything compared to higher volumes. I can turn it up and nothing suffers. All 3 dacs are impressive in this sense but the Orchid to the greatest extent. Its ability to present soft sounds softly and louder sounds loudly is where the magic is. It's not all good as it is has a rougher sound than the others, although switching the stock chip out eliminated this issue.


    Mosaic T: This is a bit of a wilcard dac I threw into the mix. It uses Toslink through the proprietary XTOS converter that came with it. I didn't want to say too much about this because it's a very niche product with only a handful out there. It's unlikely you'll be able to find one, at least easily, but they do have a new dac in the works. According to one review, it's a NOS dac that beat out the Pavane, and he sold his 12k dac after having received it. He eventually sold it and apparently I had the very same dac before I sold it. It's a bit of a unique dac and reminds me of my main amp - a Sony VFET speaker amp.

    That amp completely redefined what I was looking for. I rejected the amp at first. It sounded unremarkable. Nothing stood out and I felt that something was missing. Sure, it had beautifully, smooth extended highs and was dynamic, ridiculously so, in fact - but something wasn't quite right. An aspect unique to V-fets I am told. I stored it away for a couple of months due to limited desk space. I decided to list it for sale, but then pulled it out of storage to listen to again. Something clicked. I realised that nothing was in fact missing at any spectrum, it was all there. It hit me that all amps emphasise some sort of the frequency response and it was this that was the reason for my original disappointment. It had no real colouration - it has no weaknesses. I hastily took it the ad down.

    You could be mistaken for thinking that this is a warm amp but it's decidedly transparent. it gives instruments a natural warmth instead of the artificial warmth I was so used to. It's natural. I will never sell it. It redefined what I was looking for because I was always firmly in the give me warm-sounding equipment camp but my reasons for doing so were faulty/astray. Some say the Yamaha and Sony vfet amps are the best solid state amps ever made - it'd be hard to disagree.Most probably because they don't sound solid-state. How much (or should I say little) I paid still makes me laugh. Nelson Pass is certainly a fan:

    Link 1
    Link 2

    One shouldn't be too hard to find, as they pop up from time to time on eBay. Just make sure a good technician goes over it first, a few tweaks also need to be made to ensure longevity. The amp has it all; tonality, low-level resolution and dynamic range in particular.

    I mention all this because the Mosaic T reminds me of my VFET amp. It sounds almost unremarkable. Nothing stands out and you feel that something is missing too. You soon learn that this is its greatest asset though. Switching to another dac makes the others sound rough compared to the Mosaic. I'd say that the Mosaic is more similar to the SFD-2 in the way that it has a more relaxed, further back sound. I think it's a bit too refined for its own good. However, while my amp doesn't sound like anything and is decidedly transparent and natural, I don't think this translates well with the Mosaic T. It has a very clean sound, but it's a bit too laid-back and refined.


    To sum up, the SFD-2 is the most technically impressive, and in all probability the majority in this hobby would prefer it. The Orchid has the qualities I value the most and brings me closest to the live experience, yet doesn't excel in all those
    typical audiophile areas others appreciate but it also doesn't fall short. The SFD-1 falls somewhere between the two. The Mosaic T is too refined for its own good. It's impossible to have it all and the Orchid just so happens to have the most of what I'm looking for.

    All are clearly very, very good dacs and none are "better" than the other as such, they just have different qualities and what makes this hobby interesting and suitable for anyone seeking the sound they're looking for. You can't have it all.

    I thoroughly enjoyed testing these dacs, probably more so than any other equipment. With amps and headphones differences can be rather obvious but with the subtle differences dacs produce I feel that I have much better narrowed in and confirmed the sound I'm looking for.
     
  15. Walderstorn

    Walderstorn Friend

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    That was a very pleasant read. It's not often we can encounter that comparisson (SFD-2 and 1). Until this day i regret not having bought one (SFD-1) a couple of years ago for a good 700€. I do have a question though, after reading all, you have heard both S1 and S2?

    Edit - saw now that i asked in the wrong thread
     
  16. Mr.Sneis

    Mr.Sneis Friend

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    I am curious to know if anyone knows what needs to be done to the circuit in order to swap out ST or Optical inputs to BNC/XLR?

    Would be nice if the dac had BNC, RCA, and XLR input.
     
  17. mscott58

    mscott58 Friend

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    So after a long time on the sidelines I finally took the leap and found a deal on an SFD-1 Mk2 and grabbed it.

    Only problem is that the input selector switch needs to be repaired. The SFD-1 is being shipped to me and I was trying to get ready for the repair. From all I can see on the web, and in zooming in on some high-res pics, the selector toggle switch appears to be part of the SALECOM T80 series of three-way switches.

    Quick request of any of you with an SFD-1, can you please take a look at your unit and help me figure out exactly which switch it is so I can get cracking on tracking it down? Again, it looks like a SALECOM T80 series, and maybe the T8021 or T8022 series, or maybe even the T822?

    https://www.salecom.com/en/product/Toggle-Switches/t8021.html

    So @purr1n, @smithyy, @h2rulz, @Xecuter @Peti, @Luckbad and anyone else with an SFD-1, could you please help me find out more information about the input selector switch part number?

    Thanks all in advance!
     
  18. mscott58

    mscott58 Friend

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    Realized I never finished the story about the SFD-1 Mk2 I bought. When I received it in the mail, the seller had packaged it pretty badly and not only was the one switch broken, but the other switches were also broken clean off, the face plate was bent and several screws were missing. Ugh. Sent it back and got a full refund. That sucked, but at least the seller acted professionally.

    So I'm still on the hunt for an SFD, and haven't seen many come up for sale. Only one I see recently is an SFD-2, but it's pretty pricey (around $1,200). Anyone have a feeling for whether that's a good price or not? Might try to negotiate them down.

    Cheers
     
  19. Mr.Sneis

    Mr.Sneis Friend

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    Fyi It's an sfd2mk1 if we're looking at the same one.
     
  20. mscott58

    mscott58 Friend

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