Star Wars: The Force Awakens [SPOILERS ABOUND]

Discussion in 'Random Thoughts' started by mtoc, Dec 20, 2015.

  1. drfindley

    drfindley Secretly lives in the Analog Room - Friend

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    All I have to say is if the 8th movie doesn't have a Death Star in it, I'm gonna be pretty pissed.
     
  2. OJneg

    OJneg The Most Insufferable

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    I'm not sure if this is still canon in Disney-verse, but I know in other media it's established that being a darkside user is super draining on mental and physical stamina. Dudes turns old and wrinkled unless they feast on younglings to refill their mana bar (or something). I always thought that explained Vader's deterioration, but you could argue that's just another fanboy retcon to account for one of the countless disconnects between the two trilogies.

    Obviously Kylo Ren is not Vader and we shouldn't expect him to be. The mask is a just a call-back and ties into his teenage need to be like grandpa, fine. But he is established to be vicious, powerful, and dangerous. That's the sense I was getting at the beginning when he's able to STOP LAZERBOLTS and DO VULCAN MINDMELDS. Yet he loses to someone who has zero training in the Force or Jedi combat. I mean, this dude has (presumably) trained under Luke (and also Darth McEvilface?). He was able to kill all the other padawans that Luke was training at least. Yet he gets his bunghole rekt by WonderWoman I guess after she does a Neo-esque download of all those Jedi cheat codes. Woohoo Female Protagonist in Star Wars everyone! 2016 guyz! It's a major incongruency that impossible to write off as "well everyone learns different" what a joke. At least with baby Anakin we can say he was Force-Jesus created by midiclorian fairies. I think that grants him the ability to do a bit of cheating at Jedi poker. We didn't see baby Anakin kick Yoda's as in a 1v1 at least.

    Moreover, where do we go from here? If Rey can already beat Darth Edward Cullen then where's the drama going to be the next time the two face off? Again, garbage.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2016
  3. drfindley

    drfindley Secretly lives in the Analog Room - Friend

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    The over powered part I think is a weak argument. That she isn't freaking out and that's it's not a mystery is a better one, but I think it just takes a few more beats of movie to sell it.

    This to me is like the Senate/Resistance crap. They went a little too fast over that stuff. Not that you'll find me advocating for another Star Wars movie about politics and taxes and trade relations, but the Senate and the Empire were better defined in the original trilogy. Something on that level.

    I enjoyed this movie, but yeah, it does feel like they rushed over the mystery and the mythology. To me this is the JJ effect. I'm hoping this come back in 8. Empire sure brought a ton of mystery and mythology, the parts of the Force we really remember. I'm hoping a new director will infuse it with this.
     
  4. drfindley

    drfindley Secretly lives in the Analog Room - Friend

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    Where this breaks down for me is if you take this to sports. Bo Jackson could (and did) walk onto almost any sports team and beat guys with training. I agree it's not well portrayed between the two, but it doesn't delve into the impossible for me.
     
  5. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Given Jedi Bo Jackson capabilities, Rey should have amounted to more than a trash scavenger. Consider she was older than Anakin. Anakin was still a child, proly mostly concerned with Pokemon and Minecraft.

    Kylo Ren room thrashing was comical. And pretty sad.

    Furthermore, dude can stop blaster fire in mid air, but cannot be alerted to Chewey's presense and laser blast from further way. Let say he was... emotional. He should have still bitch slap Rey and Flinn. No way Rey would have the ability to read Ren's mind. Resist inquiries yes, but overpowering him? WTF.
     
  6. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    I thought the movie made it clear that the Knights of Ren were Luke's Jedi Knights in training that Kylo led astray if you can see through the JJ Abrams take on the script. Luke of course will have to hunt them down.

    Kylo's power level varies as he's pretty much a whiny, whimpy little bitch who can only kill grown humans over five feet tall after the Stormtroopers round them up or they walk up close within stabbing distance. Him stopping the blaster bolt was just a stupid JJ Abrams "The Matrix" moment.
     
  7. drfindley

    drfindley Secretly lives in the Analog Room - Friend

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    Kylo Ren's being good with a lightsaber against computers is one thing. Good against the living? That's something else.
     
  8. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    I thought Ren massacred Jedi's with his lightsaber, which make Luke sad and stuff. What happened? Where did all that skill go?
     
  9. OJneg

    OJneg The Most Insufferable

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    Agree with ultrabike, I have no knowledge of the "Knights of Ren". I'm also unsure why the Republic and Resistance are separate entities. Can someone point me to the wiki or a writeup that explains all of the stuff that JJ left out for the sake of an extra few minutes of pew pew?

    Not even going to respond to the Bo Jackson analogy. Let's leave that be, I think most folks will see through what's really going on here.
     
  10. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    Let's not forget Ren got blasted in the stomach with a lazer crossbow that, for all the other victims, more or less sent them flying and all exploded like. I suppose it would not be unreasonable to assume he'd still be able to take on Rey in a weakened state, but you could argue the other way that he only lost because he was weakened. I am not too concerned either way.

    Still doesn't explain how he didn't just stop that lazer like the one earlier in the movie. Emotions, I guess? Sure, why not. Makes more sense than tantrums.

    Still doesn't explain how Rey got good with the force. I guess she's just a knowledgeable fangirl that knew the moves? Or insert some weird argument about the force awakening after being dormant and making her all Super Saiyan like. (Sounds like a desperate theory to me, if you know what I'm talking about.)

    I dunno, I had a good time regardless. I feel like you could poke holes all over the original trilogy too if you really set your mind to it. Then you go down a slippery slope and realize life is miserable and nothing makes sense. I'll just flip on goldfish brain mode from time to time.

    I feel like guys that saw the original trilogy in their late 20s or 30s think it's makes just as little sense. At least that's my anecdotal experience. Though the originals did have undeniably less pew pew and didn't rely on outside books and comics for world and character building.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2016
  11. OJneg

    OJneg The Most Insufferable

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    There's a huge difference between seeking out small plotholes (all movies have them) and addressing these sort of MAJOR incongruencies within the storyline and established lore. That's another fanboy cop-out. I should keep start keeping track in this thread.

    Sorry if I've ruined TFA for people who enjoyed it. My frontal cortex is a bit more developed than a chimpanzee's Tuskan Raider's bantha's though.
     
  12. Altrunox

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    I'm pretty sure that Han told exactly it to Rey or/and the stormtrooper.
    Maybe he had some help...
     
  13. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    On Bo Jackson, he was trained. He played both college baseball and football. In the sport which takes longer to develop (baseball), his batting average was shit until toward the end of this tenure with KC.

    The better analogy would be Jarryd Hayne. The most awesome rugby player turned into 49ers brain-fart fumblemeister. Rey would have most likely sliced off her own leg.

    TFA doesn't have to establish anything according to lore, but it does need to establish itself as a good science fantasy fiction movie. SCIENCE (stupid explanations of hyperspace, planet killers, weak spots in super death bases); FANTASY (Chi, Force, Ki, whatever, princesses, rogues, pirates, ruffians, knaves, laser swords, space-fu masters, apprentices); FICTION (plot and explanation of how the science and fantasy fit within the plot).

    P.S.

    Can we Jason Stoddard to write the next installment?
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2016
  14. AustinValentine

    AustinValentine Friend

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    David Hume's Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding (1748) asserts that Fiction gains its rhetorical force not from its realism but from its unity. This is where we get the idea that fiction requires an "internally consistent universe" from - and with it developed ideas of seriality, canonicity, continuity, retroactive construction, etc. etc.

    Market forces since the 1980s have intervened more heavily in popular fiction across all mediums driving it to rely more heavily on reboots, pastiche and nostalgia kitsch. As long as mining and repackaging past cultural expression remains profitable, they'll keep doing it. Synthetic unity is produced post hoc by way of retcons and canon negotiation.

    Disney & Abrams's TFA may have R. Kelly'ed all over the internal consistency of the Star Wars universe (such that it was one in the first place). But ultimately we all paid money for their liquid bling.
     
  15. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    I almost didn't see it, but Rotten Tomatoes said it was good. I should have known the HF effect was in play for this one.
     
  16. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    I tend to look more at average user reviews. 6.9 on metacritic right now. I find anywhere between a 6 and 7 reasonable. I expect it will go lower over time, probably settling around 6.5ish.
     
  17. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Damn, the pros were paid off by Disney.
     
  18. OJneg

    OJneg The Most Insufferable

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    What I've noticed is that a lot of reviewers are still sucking off the nostalgia teet. They're just happy to see a Star Wars that isn't totally Lucas-neutered. Although I think it remains to be seen if this trilogy is any better than pequel, or just a sidegrade. Like I mentioned before, I think the next episode could be great. I'm hoping for a scene where Rey has to carry Mark Hamill on her back as they trek across the Scottish highlands. It's an open book at this point.
     
  19. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    It pains me to see how little creativity and depth I see at the theaters these days.

    Marketing and short-sighted management can f**k up everything long term, for a short term buck.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2016
  20. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    I don't have a link handy, but I did read an interesting article addressing this. Essentially the reviewer said he was super thrilled after seeing it once. Then he thought about it. Then he saw it again and felt disappointed. Then he thought some more. Then he saw it a third time and felt like his feelings had been equalized - good and fun, but not great, plenty of flaws, and clearly playing off the nostalgia factor. He had some anecdotal experiences where some hated it the first time, enjoyed it a lot more the second time, then kinda met somewhere in the middle after a third viewing.

    Personally, I think the reviewers would have benefited from seeing it 2 or 3 times with a few days in between each viewing to get themselves grounded a bit. With all the hype, nostalgia feels, and only one viewing, I could see it being too easy to fall into the trap of rating it too far to either extreme. There are clearly too many "feels" going around with this movie for most people to make a good judgment call on it after one viewing.

    I am seeing more and more articles coming out, now that people have seen TFA multiple times and thought about it, wishing that Lucas had some involvement in the new trilogy. Not the full blown control like he had with the prequels (insert Plinkett review here), but some say in it. I can't say I'd entirely disagree with that.

    It's like that article I posted way back in this thread. This is clearly an industrialized movie churned out in the same way all the Marvel movies and associated content are being churned out (new comics, books, etc.). For Star Wars, expanded content outside of the movie should be used to do just that...expand the story. Not explain points that should have been made clear in the movie. Unfortunately, a lot of fans these days enjoy soaking up as much content as they can, so they're happy to have to buy all these other books and comics to find all the answers they're looking for.

    Another point I should mention is that the movie was clearly rushed. Michael Arndt was working on the script, asked for something like 18 months, and Disney said they needed it in 6 months. I think that's where JJ Abrams and Lawrence Kasdan came into play. It's pretty evident when you find out that Poe Dameron was actually supposed to die when the tie fighter crashed on Jakku. He was written back in later on, hence his sudden reappearance and vague, "no biggie," explanation for how he managed to survive.
     

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