System Synergy - Special Sound

Discussion in 'General Audio Discussion' started by atomicbob, Nov 23, 2021.

  1. atomicbob

    atomicbob dScope Yoda

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    @atomicbob

    batriq said:
    "Somewhat related to the "cable" question: I noticed in the pictured the stock PCs were used. Do aftermarket power chords make a difference with the MB DACs? Did you guys try any, and if not, do you have any experience with changing the stock PC for at least the Bifrost MB?"

    We did not have two identical aftermarket cables with which to make a consistent A/B comparison between the two DACs. We were attempting to keep differential variables to a minimum. The results you see posted were obtained from more than 6 hrs of data collection and several hours of write-up by @johnjen .
    atomicbob, Nov 2, 2015
     
  2. batriq

    batriq Probably has made you smarter

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    @batriq

    atomicbob said:
    "We did not have two identical aftermarket cables with which to make a consistent A/B comparison between the two DACs. We were attempting to keep differential variables to a minimum. The results you see posted were obtained from more than 6 hrs of data collection and several hours of write-up by @johnjen ."

    Thank you for these details! The amount of work you guys put in is tremendous and very much apparent from @johnjen 's post. This test was very relevant for me because I only use SE outputs and was wondering if it is worth moving up from the Multifrost to the Gungnir Multibit, or enjoy it now and save up for the Yggdrasil later (I'm using the Multifrost in my main speaker system). The DAC is being fed from a Marantz CD/SACD player through coax. Currently, for some recordings I prefer the Multifrost, while for others I prefer the internal Marantz DAC.

    Note that Schiit switched my whole motherboard in the Bifrost since I had one of the original models (I could tell because the optical and RCA inputs are different, and the LEDs are less bright) so it probably still needs more time to break-in beyond the usual warm-up time. I can go into details about which recordings were preferred on which DAC but I want to repeat the test after a few weeks (note that the first "test" above was a blind test).

    Anyway, separately from this session, have you tried after market PC's with the Multifrost and noticed any differences?
    batriq, Nov 2, 2015
     
  3. atomicbob

    atomicbob dScope Yoda

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    @atomicbob

    batriq said:
    "Anyway, separately from this session, have you tried after market PC's with the Multifrost and noticed any differences?"

    No. I have tried a Cavalli Audio Liquid Crimson with the Multifrost and noted a difference. [​IMG] I'm still listening.
    atomicbob, Nov 2, 2015
     
  4. batriq

    batriq Probably has made you smarter

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    @batriq

    atomicbob said:
    "No. I have tried a Cavalli Audio Liquid Crimson with the Multifrost and noted a difference. [​IMG] I'm still listening."

    LOL. Got it [​IMG]
    batriq, Nov 2, 2015
     
  5. CEE TEE

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    JohnJen

    Hoo Boy…
    Part Deux


    Hoo Boy is back for a 2nd test of the differences between these 2 Schiit DACS.
    And they are even smaller than I thought, while running in SE mode.

    During our preceding exploration of these 2 dacs using the Sunrise amp and HD650, the differences were so slight that it was hard to pick one over the other in terms of SQ alone.

    In my research I have found that when the differences are ≈10% or less, the ability to reliably differentiate such differences, as slight as these, is essentially naught.
    IOW I couldn’t tell one from the other in terms of which was ‘better’.
    And as I stated, “Yes there were barely perceptible differences, but they were so slight, I lack the vocabulary to enunciate them with any real degree of elucidation… [​IMG]”, and this evaluation still holds true.

    So for this next stage of evaluation we substituted for the ‘lowly’ Project Sunrise III, for the brand new, hot off of the production line, Cavalli Crimson amp, which some consider THE hot item right now.
    I figured the Crimson’s ‘superior’ resolution, power, SoTA design and tighter tolerances in manufacturing would reveal more of the differences between these 2 dacs.
    And so I figured it would be ‘easy(er)’ to pick which dac was ‘better’.
    That was my bias heading into this round of tests.

    And this time we had a truly hardware matched evaluation setup.
    ALL the wires for the Bifrost Multibit were identical to those used with the Gungnir Multibit, right down to the power cables, and up to the bel canto SPDIF converter.
    This included their lengths, type of wire used, the connectors etc.

    The A/B selector switch and stepped attenuator was the same as before (Goldpoint SA2 passive attenuation with switch for A/B selection), but this time the wiring was ‘hidden’ so neither of us victims volunteers knew which dac was assigned to which switch position.

    I utterly failed, again, to clearly tell which dac was which.

    I knew that there was a 0.5dB gain difference between the dacs but that was the extent of’ my foreknowledge.
    Only atomicbob knew which dac was ‘hotter’, so Big Poppa and I were left to figure which dac was which.

    Yeah the ever so slight differences remained and we both detected and correctly identified the 0.5dB gain difference using the A/B switch, and we both identified an ever so slight change of nuance in tonality as well.
    That we could tell an improvement in SQ of the lowered output Gungnir Multibit attests to the SQ of these 2 dacs and our ability to peer into the music and counter the difference (albeit 0.5dB) in gain.
    And we (at least I) assumed/guessed this was the Gungnir Multibit, but it was FAR to close to make a definitive assessment.
    Both dacs presented a lovely sonic image with detail and resolution and precise image position and outline definition.
    I simply couldn’t definitively tell, they were that close.

    And when Big Poppa picked out the Gungnir Multibit he said, “it was splitting frog hairs”.
    He figured there was like a 1-2% difference between these 2 dacs, which made it really hard for him to tell them apart.
    And he was unfamiliar with the music we were using, whereas I was familiar, so along with hearing the 0.5dB difference in gain, his ability to hear which was ‘better’ is all the more impressive.

    And speaking of familiarity of the music…
    We have one track that we use to help us with delineating ultra fine inner details and focus.
    Have you ever heard a track with the sound of rain falling that actually sounds like rain?
    Not a swishing nor a phisssing sound but of actual rain drops falling on the ground and you can actually sense the ‘wetness’ of the rain and hear it change as it rains harder?

    This is a real true test of any system’s ability to recreate and present the acoustical signature of rain, such that it is unmistakable, ie. you KNOW its rain and not a facsimile nor some sound effect that sorta sounds like rain.
    This is no small task as this sound resembles the sound of masking (white or pink noise), such that only a highly resolving system will be able to differentiate the sound of rain from ‘noise’.

    The Bifrost Multibit can and does fulfill this task, even on the $1500 system we tested before the Crimson amp was put to the test.

    But wait, there’s more…
    This test track has the rain in the background, which means the foreground instruments are playing over the top of the rain.
    This additional foreground layer makes it even moar difficult to hear the rain as rain.

    Yet the Bifrost Multibit and the Gungnir Multibit deliver enough of the presence and subtle intonation of rain such that rain IS what is heard and not some semblance of rain.
    I swear I can hear the moisture in the air change as it rains harder.
    And of course living up here in the PNW, where we KNOW rain, certainly helps keep us familiarized with its sound, all to often… [​IMG]

    Bonus points for those who recognize this obscure quotation… [​IMG]
    “And now we return you to the further adventures of Nick Danger 3rd eye…”


    So our collective sets of ears and experience were stymied by these two sets of tests.

    Which also tells us that the differences between the Sunrise III ($250) and the Crimson ($2,850) amps were not enough to help differentiate these 2 dacs either.
    They truly ARE that close in SE mode.

    And it should also be noted that Bob had listened to “a pile of 9 pin tubes” before settling upon a 12BH7 for the Sunrise III amp because it had;
    1. no microphonics
    2. minimal internal electronic noise which disappeared upon completion of powerage
    3. excellent bandwidth
    4. best overall sound
    5. currently in production and available for $22 (not unobtainum ridiculous prices)
    Which points directly at the Sunrise’s versatility and tweakability as it ‘encourages’ tube rolling so easily.

    And again we shared stories, and valuable information as to what we have learned, both what works and what doesn’t, which often times is much more valuable.
    We listened to some good music and scratched our heads even more than in the 1st session.
    And if this keeps up we may need to join the hair club for men… [​IMG]

    So here is a picture of the setup, in which you can see the sonarworks plugin running in JRiver,
    which then feeds the bel canto e.One REFlink usb to spdif DDC (digital to digital converter),
    which then feeds both of the dacs,
    which then are routed to the A/B switched, stepped attenuator,
    with DH Labs Silver Sonic Air Matrix cables used for all RCA interconnects
    which then drives the Cavalli Crimson amp,
    and lastly the HD650 headphones.

    [​IMG]


    So what does all of this tell us?
    1st…
    The family resemblance between these 2 dacs is mighty strong.
    And even though there are major technical differences (dac chips used) and the change in sophistication of the support circuitry, (the power supplies and digital circuit paths that feed the actual dac chips, not to mention the analog output circuitry), are quite different between these 2 units.
    And granted the Gungnir Multibit delivers both balanced and single ended (SE) outputs of which we have only evaluated it’s SE outputs thus far.

    But what they DO have in common is that a DSP controller is feeding the data stream to the dac chips using the “supercomboburrito” filter.
    And this one single commonality seems to be the deciding factor in why they sound so similar but also do so independent of the design of the ’support’ hardware used.

    This is a remarkable achievement for Mike Moffat, and his design, development and implementation team(s) that have brought to the entire field of audio, by any standard or measure.
    To be able to have nearly the same degree of performance of a dac at 1/2 or even 1/4 of the price of its’ progenitors is remarkable for a variety of reasons.

    I remain astonished at their technological achievements.

    2nd…
    Improving the ‘quality’ of the amp did not really aid in differentiating these 2 dacs.
    Granted the Crimson needed more break-in time to be able to reach full resolution and focus.
    Still the Crimson had some additional resolving capability and dynamics etc. but all of that didn’t help us.
    These dacs are so close that if your system is SE only, there is really no reason in terms of audible SQ to spend any more $.

    And it should be mentioned that these 2 amps share similar design objectives, namely they both use a dual triode tube for input voltage gain and solid state mosfets for the output current gain.
    Which may account for the degree of close similarity between these 2 amps which are at near opposite ends of the $$$-$$$$ continuum.

    And as atomicbob noted, the Crimson is like a highly focused race car, its performance so ‘tweaked’ that it richly rewards the listener when used with source components and headphones equally as capable. [​IMG]

    Whereas the Sunrise is much easier to live with, and tweak/tube roll, and adapt to the specific needs of a wide range of setups.

    Lastly, our aim is to pursue audio gear that is truly worthy such that it creates a special auditory experience. These amps, dacs, headphones and related gear are special in that way, and they work VERY well together to create a system that demands that you keep listening, regardless of what time it is, what else you should be doing, no matter how raised the eyebrows of SWMBO become. [​IMG]

    These components are magical when used together.
    And they deliver an immersive and addicting experience as music you once thought you knew,
    is discovered anew,
    all over again.

    I remain astonished at these technological achievements which atomicbob has brought together which result in astonishing qualitative improvements, along with the IMPERATIVE nature (as in I MUST listen) of the experience.
    I think we all are witnessing milestones in the making.

    JJ
    ps I just discovered that I also have that same track of the Firebird with the guy coughing. It happens about 10 seconds into the piece. And for the first time I have a sonic difference I can directly attribute to the superiority of the Bifrost Multibit/Gungnir Multibit dacs vs. my PWD.

    And yes I can hear him cough, but it wasn’t as distinct, nor as individuated.
    IOW listening to the Bifrost Multibit/Gungnir Multibit, his cough was distinct enough to draw attention to itself, whereas my PWD is more ‘subtle’.
    But once I knew what it was and that it was there, it was easier to hear, but it’s just not as distinct.

    johnjen, Nov 4, 2015
     
  6. CEE TEE

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  7. CEE TEE

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    johnjen

    Yuanathan said:
    "JJ thanks for the detailed post, it was very informative!"

    Thanks!

    But I can't take even half of the credit since atomicbob did all the work and all we had to do was listen…
    It's a tough situation but someone has to do it… [​IMG]

    JJ
    johnjen, Nov 6, 2015
     
  8. rott

    rott Secretly hates other millenials - Friend

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    @rott

    johnjen said:
    "Hoo Boy…
    Part Deux


    And it should also be noted that Bob had listened to “a pile of 9 pin tubes” before settling upon a 12BH7 for the Sunrise III amp because it had;
    1. no microphonics
    2. minimal internal electronic noise which disappeared upon completion of powerage
    3. excellent bandwidth
    4. best overall sound
    5. currently in production and available for $22 (not unobtainum ridiculous prices)
    Which points directly at the Sunrise’s versatility and tweakability as it ‘encourages’ tube rolling so easily.

    Click to expand..."


    @atomicbob can you link to a product listing of the 12BH7 you used? Which specific brand?

    I see on Garage1217 that they have several "12BH7A" and am trying to find out what the difference is.
    rott, Nov 8, 2015
     
  9. atomicbob

    atomicbob dScope Yoda

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  10. rott

    rott Secretly hates other millenials - Friend

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    @rott

    atomicbob said:
    "Shown in the component list from the very first post. Electro-Harmonix.
    http://www.amazon.com/Electro-Harmonix-12BH7-Gold-Pre-amp-Vacuum/dp/B00IGZV9JW"


    Thank you, somehow kept missing that bit in your component list(s).

    Curious about the DH Labs Silver Sonic Air Matrix RCA interconnects - compared to more pedestrian interconnects such as the Pyst, did they in any way diminish anything noticeable (soundstage/width) while at the same time enhancing whatever they specifically enhanced (detail, etc.)?

    Is it a fair assumption that using silver interconnects between Bifrost Multibit and amp could somewhat counter its relative warmness (compared to Gungnir Multibit)?
    rott, Nov 9, 2015
     
  11. atomicbob

    atomicbob dScope Yoda

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    @atomicbob

    rott said:
    "Thank you, somehow kept missing that bit in your component list(s).

    Curious about the DH Labs Silver Sonic Air Matrix RCA interconnects - compared to more pedestrian interconnects such as the Pyst, did they in any way diminish anything noticeable (soundstage/width) while at the same time enhancing whatever they specifically enhanced (detail, etc.)?

    Is it a fair assumption that using silver interconnects between Bifrost Multibit and amp could somewhat counter its relative warmness (compared to Gungnir Multibit)?"


    The Electro-Harmonix 12BH7 is a nice sounding, reasonably priced current production tube. not some NOS unobtainum.
    In Part Deux above, all interconnects were identical and were the DH Labs cable mentioned. I'll let @johnjen answer the difference between Pyst and the Silver Sonic Air Matrix. He is better at describing that than I.
    atomicbob, Nov 9, 2015
     
  12. CEE TEE

    CEE TEE MOT: NITSCH

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    johnjen

    MoatsArt said:
    "Thanks for the report, @johnjen

    Is it normal to evaluate DACs by the perception of extraneous noises? If this were a criteria in choosing audio products, I'd always choose the gear that made the entertaining side shows (coughs, rain drops, farts and insect wings) less obvious so that I could focus on the music.

    What differences did you hear between the two DACs when it came to music? Please refer to specific examples.

    Probably showing my naivete here."


    As was mentioned the differences between these 2 dacs in SE mode were so small I couldn't describe the differences, as I lack sufficient vocabulary.

    IOW, given the goal of evaluating a $1500 complete system and that the Bifrost Multibit was so close to its' bigger brother, it was a no-brainer in choosing the Bifrost Multibit as the dac.

    As for using "coughs, rain drops, farts and insect wings" etc. it isn't so much that these subtle details are or can be heard but that you can IDENTIFY them as what they are.
    THAT is what is so startling.

    That is why I mentioned that we use the sound of rain as but one of the tests.
    It is all to often heard but not recognized for what it is, namely rain falling.

    Being able to recognize these subtle sounds and hear into them (when it begins to rain harder) etc., is remarkable in and of itself.
    And to be able to do this on a $1500 system is astonishing.

    JJ
    johnjen, Nov 9, 2015
     
  13. CEE TEE

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    johnjen

    rott said:
    "Thank you, somehow kept missing that bit in your component list(s).

    Curious about the DH Labs Silver Sonic Air Matrix RCA interconnects - compared to more pedestrian interconnects such as the Pyst, did they in any way diminish anything noticeable (soundstage/width) while at the same time enhancing whatever they specifically enhanced (detail, etc.)?

    Is it a fair assumption that using silver interconnects between Bifrost Multibit and amp could somewhat counter its relative warmness (compared to Gungnir Multibit)?"


    atomicbob said:
    "The Electro-Harmonix 12BH7 is a nice sounding, reasonably priced current production tube. not some NOS unobtainum.
    In Part Deux above, all interconnects were identical and were the DH Labs cable mentioned. I'll let @johnjen answer the difference between Pyst and the Silver Sonic Air Matrix. He is better at describing that than I."


    Now yer gunna make me hafta remember back a few weeks…[​IMG]

    During the 1st test setup we tried 3 different sets of cables, the Pyst by Schiit, the DH Labs Silver Sonic Air Matrix, and the Blue Jeans RCA interconnects.
    The DH Labs cables were the 'best' we had on hand, with the Pyst as 2nd best, and the Blue Jeans cables 3rd.
    I figure one major factor why the Pyst came in 2nd was they were VERY short (like 6"), while the other 2 sets were like 2 to 3' in length.

    As for what I noticed, well the 1st test compared the DH labs to the Blue Jeans and the differences were as if veil dropped down and obscured some of the details. This was improved when we tried the Pyst cables but the veil while less obvious, was still there.
    This is when we figured out that the SQ difference followed the cables and not the dacs.

    As for specific differences the DH labs cables use silver cladded over copper where as the Blue Jeans are just copper, as are the Pyst cables (I would guess).
    And of course the RCA connectors play a role as well, with the DH Labs connectors using a 'barrel pinch down' type.

    But the use of the silver in the wires and the barrel pinch RCA connectors was clearly an advantage over even the much shorter Pyst cables.

    And in terms of how much difference there was if I were to 'rate' them would be a 20-25% loss of inner detail and musical enjoyability between the best and 3rd place. And the Pyst cables were in the middle but closer to the DH labs cables.

    Clearly in this system the influence of the silver cables was noticeable and helped remove (or not create) a veil from the soundstage.
    There was a sense of direct connectedness to the music, which is one of the hallmarks of these dacs that was diminished by the other cables.
    IOW the DH Labs cables presented this connectedness with a greater degree of palpable 'realness', than the other 2 cables.

    JJ
    johnjen, Nov 10, 2015
     
  14. CEE TEE

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    johnjen

    Ah, I see now.

    Let me just say that when all of the pieces of any system work well together and as I put it, 'When the system gets out of its own way', then all manner of subtle and meaningful additional information (some never before heard) becomes much more evident and noticeable.
    This is, or can be, a good thing depending upon if these sorts of sonic attributes are sought after.

    But once these inner details have been experienced it sets a new level of desirability (again if these traits are considered as 'good') and the desire to attain and enjoy this new level of enjoyment becomes a driving influence.
    IOW as the saying goes…

    "Sorry about your wallet!"

    JJ
    johnjen, Nov 10, 2015
     
  15. rott

    rott Secretly hates other millenials - Friend

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    @rott

    johnjen said:
    "Our conclusions are (the envelope please)…
    The Bifrost Multibit (SE only) and Gungnir Multibit (using the SE output) are or can be REALLY close.
    Cables will have a greater net effect, (ie. will further 'color' the end results), MOAR than the differences between these 2 dacs, in SE mode.

    ..."


    So in effect if you’re running in SE mode only, the Bifrost Multibit is a no brainer at $600.
    And if you have a balanced amp then, perhaps, the Gungnir Multibit or Yggdrasil might be worth twice or 4 times the cost of the Bifrost Multibit.

    Reading up more on the Liquid Carbon and trying to get a feel for whether it'd be worth choosing the Gungnir Multibit rather than the Bifrost Multibit to go with it, came across this in the LC thread on HF and thought it was somewhat pertinent to your findings (HF'er who reported his findings is well loved here I believe).
    rott, Nov 10, 2015
     
  16. CEE TEE

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    johnjen

    MoatsArt said:
    "I have experienced system synergy at work, but have not had the opportunity to fine tune it to the degree that you have.

    Keep up the good work.

    It would be great if you could describe the impact of the equipment on the music to help out inexperienced and intellectually-challenged souls like me."


    I am writing a series of articles that can be used to "describe the impact of the equipment on the music".
    Or more accurately stated, it's noticing and characterizing changes in the music to determine, due to changes in the equipment, if the system has been improved, ie. is truly 'better' or just different.
    Or not.

    It is on the head-fi site in the DIY section called a DIY'rs Cookbook.

    What these observations can be used for is to determine if changes made are truly improvements, or are just differences.
    Theses tools can also be used to help us pay attention to those subtle (and not so subtle) cues so we can hear 'into' the music and appreciate it all the more.

    JJ
    johnjen, Nov 10, 2015
     
  17. CEE TEE

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    CAN'T FIND:
    PAGE 5
    PAGE 6
    PAGE 7
    PAGE 8
    PAGE 9
    PAGE 10


    CONTINUING WITH PAGE 11:
     
  18. atomicbob

    atomicbob dScope Yoda

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    @atomicbob

    Armaegis said:
    "True... but it's so friggin' huge! I might as well mount some legs on it and turn it into a desk "

    I ought to consider one of those for the lab bench given the rather large number of protected, high quality outlets on that monster.
    atomicbob, Feb 17, 2017
     
  19. atomicbob

    atomicbob dScope Yoda

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    @atomicbob

    The Educator:
    20170226 Bifrost MB - Gungnir MB - RN D16 ABX.JPG

    20170226 ABX system comparison.png

    20170226 EN Focusrite RN D16 - Gungnir MB - Bifrost MB - ABX - Saga - Jotunheim - HD800 - HD650.png

    This is a serious system for comparing attributes of various components. It took several days but I can now correctly identify the Bifrost MB against the Gungnir MB 8 times out of 8 trials in blind mode. It isn't easy, requires a quiet space and concentration. The first few trials were humbling. Now I have completed seven sets of 8 trials with 100% successful identification.

    Contrary to the popular consensus, Bifrost MB is not dead. In fact it sounds pretty damn good to my ears, especially when fed a high quality SPDIF input, of which I use either an ethernet Dante system or Singxer SU-1. If you have only heard the BiMB with its internal USB, then I contend you haven't really experienced the full capability of the BiMB. Same applies to any of the Schiit MB DACs.

    In this educational process it became apparent of the absolute necessity to achieve thermal equilibrium with any device in the chain using a clock.

    atomicbob, Feb 28, 2017
     

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  20. ButtUglyJeff

    ButtUglyJeff Stunningly beautiful IRL

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