The Bob Dylan Literature Appreciation Thread

Discussion in 'Music and Recordings' started by TwoEars, Oct 13, 2016.

  1. Case

    Case Anxious Head (Formerly Wilson)

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    @Muse Wanderer, I agree with your understanding of Dylan's relationship to other artists and his legacy, but I don't think the Nobel Prize is the right prize for him. The posts here changed my mind.
     
  2. Kattefjaes

    Kattefjaes Mostly Harmless

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    I don't think anyone is claiming that Bob Dylan didn't use to write some amazing songs, either, just for the record.

    (The fact that I'd much rather than other people performed them for him is neither here nor there :p )
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2016
  3. Muse Wanderer

    Muse Wanderer Friend

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    Nobel prizes are awarded for outstanding contributions to humanity.

    I understand that since only one prize out of five is dedicated to art, the literature award, it is unfair on so many artists from other art disciplines such as music, painting, sculpture, playwrights and so forth.

    Did Bob Dylan give an outstanding contribution to humanity?

    It is hard to judge, especially with my limited experience, but in my opinion, his contribution to the singer song-writer genre, a reflection of the historic bard tradition encompassing literature and music, is outstanding.
     
  4. Kattefjaes

    Kattefjaes Mostly Harmless

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    Not everyone is convinced that it is literature, also, many people feel like he has already been sufficiently lionised, and to crowbar him into eligibility for this somewhat inappropriate accolade was bordering on the redundant. There are many actual authors whose circumstance and canon would benefit more from receiving this literary prize, who wouldn't just shrug, mumble "cool, man" and throw it in the corner with the other awards.

    It feels like self-indulgent post-hoc rationalisation of a particularly slapdash kind on the part of the committee. No wonder it took them so long to announce the winner this year; the rumours of bitter divisions within the committee suddenly make more sense.

    It's certainly a divisive choice, that much I think we can agree on!
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2016
  5. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    @Muse Wanderer , I don't dispute what you say about Dylan, only that he was far from the only one. That generation was full of poets writing songs.

    @Kattefjaes, the existence of that video on youtube was short. I have a recording of the BBC's production of Under Milk Wood; it is one of my regular companions on long flights, etc. The wonder of Dylan Thomas, the wonder of the cast, and the wonder of the BBC at its absolute peak. Wonder-full!
     
  6. Kattefjaes

    Kattefjaes Mostly Harmless

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    I am not sure what you mean by "the existence of that video on youtube was short", but I went back and linked the early vinyl recording, which is arguably more powerful.

    Did you hear the modern radio production of "Under Milk Wood" from 2003? It was still using Richard Burton's narration, and an all-Welsh cast. There even exists a 5.1 mix. It... didn't suck.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2016
  7. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Let's settle it and give him a SuperBAF Golden Schlong Award.
     
  8. TwoEars

    TwoEars Friend

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    A very informative and well written post, thanks.

    I would still personally have preferred that some semi-obscure author received the award, someone who could have used the attention. After all that's what they normally do... mostly. But it is what it is.

    And then Marv could have presented Dylan with the Golden Schlong, that's one *huge* honor as well.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2016
  9. Case

    Case Anxious Head (Formerly Wilson)

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    The Golden Schlongs opened me up to such pleasures.
     
  10. Muse Wanderer

    Muse Wanderer Friend

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    The Golden Schlongs are the real deal!

    I just can't wait for the Golden Schlong award ceremony presented in 4K and THX from SBAF central!
    :D
     
  11. Kattefjaes

    Kattefjaes Mostly Harmless

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    (BTW, if it sounded like @Muse Wanderer and I were at each other's throats, I don't think we were. Having met him now, I can read his more impassioned posts in the right mental voice- and the tone is more "enthusiastic" than "hulking out", I believe. In return, I certainly don't want to decapitate him, and thoroughly enjoyed the back and forth.. So don't fret, if anyone was.)
     
  12. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    The Youtube :/ grimmace and, "Sorry this video is not available." I thought it must have been removed, but if you can still see it, it must be a regional thing.

    That certainly settles it!

    :eek: :oops:

    And the wonderful video from which your avatar comes had gone by the time I went back for another use "due to copyright reasons."
     
  13. Kattefjaes

    Kattefjaes Mostly Harmless

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    Deliciously, far from apparently limbering up to give a weepy starlet speech, hell, far even from mumbling "cool, man" and throwing the award on the pile with all the others, Mr. Zimmerman is, so far, eluding the Nobel organisation:

    https://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/oct/17/nobel-prize-bob-dylan-unable-to-reach

    Now that is a splendid twist that I did not expect!
     
  14. Muse Wanderer

    Muse Wanderer Friend

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    Dylan has been on a 'never ending tour' since 1988. I attended one of his concerts four years ago and he looked as energised as ever.

    Quoting Dylan: "He not busy busy being born is busy dying"

    I wouldn't be surprised if Dylan does not attend the Nobel ceremony or completely shuns the prize.

    Shifting the focus on his art rather than Dylan as a person would be welcome news to me.

    "I wish that for just one time you could stand inside my shoes. You’d know what a drag it is to see you" might just be his mindset at the Nobel committee.

    Dylan's reply to the Swedish academy may well be summarised as follows...

    "Yes, I received your letter yesterday, about the time the doorknob broke
    When you asked me how I was doing, was that some kind of joke
    All these people that you mention, yes, I know them, they're quite lame
    I had to rearrange their faces and give them all another name
    Right now, I can't read too good, don't send me no more letters no
    Not unless you mail them from Desolation Row"

     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2016
  15. Kattefjaes

    Kattefjaes Mostly Harmless

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    Actually, since we're pushing the boundaries of literature here, it's more likely to be:


    Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle all dressed in green
    Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle till the moon is blue
    Wiggle till the moon sees you
    Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle in your boots and shoes
    Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle, you got nothing to lose
    Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle, like a swarm of bees
    Wiggle on your hands and knees
    Wiggle to the front, wiggle to the rear
    Wiggle till you wiggle right out of here
    Wiggle till it opens, wiggle till it shuts
    Wiggle till it bites, wiggle till it cuts
    Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a bowl of soup
    Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a rolling hoop
    Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a ton of lead
    Wiggle, you can raise the dead
    Wiggle till…

    World-changing stuff.
     
  16. Muse Wanderer

    Muse Wanderer Friend

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    :D lol
    Dylan did follow a U-shaped curve in his career I must admit. His 80s stuff was such a disappointment culminating in that notoriously bad song 'Wiggle wiggle'!

    He did recover from that though with his 'World gone wrong' album and especially the fantastic album 'TIme out of Mind'.

    Man, this thread is making me relisten to all my Dylan albums, bootleg and radio recordings I have stacked somewhere! I haven't listened to him for 4 years or so... having been awestruck with classical music since.

    Here's a magnificent piece from Time out of Mind... 'Not Dark Yet' that has similarities to John Keats' poem 'Ode to a Nightingale'. On his book Dylans' Visions of Sin, Prof Ricks notes: Broken down line for line, "similar turns of phrase, figures of speech, [and] felicities of rhyming" can be found throughout "Not Dark Yet" and the Ode. Ricks also argues that "there is a strong affinity with Keats in the way that in the song night colours, darkens, the whole atmosphere while never being spoken of," just as Keats used winter to color and darken the atmosphere in another poem he wrote, To Autumn. "Dylan's refrain or burden is 'It's not dark yet, but it's getting there.' He bears it and bares it beautifully, with exquisite precision of voice, dry humour, and resilience, all these in the cause of fortitude at life's going to be brought to an end by death."


    Shadows are falling and I been here all day
    It's too hot to sleep and time is running away
    Feel like my soul has turned into steel
    I've still got the scars that the sun didn't let me heal
    There's not even room enough to be anywhere
    It's not dark yet, but it's getting there

    Well my sense of humanity is going down the drain
    Behind every beautiful thing, there's been some kind of pain
    She wrote me a letter and she wrote it so kind
    She put down in writin' what was in her mind
    I just don't see why I should even care
    It's not dark yet, but it's getting there

    Well I been to London and I been to gay Paree
    I followed the river and I got to the sea
    I've been down to the bottom of a whirlpool of lies
    I ain't lookin' for nothin' in anyone's eyes
    Sometimes my burden is more than I can bear
    It's not dark yet, but it's getting there

    I was born here and I'll die here, against my will
    I know it looks like I'm movin' but I'm standin' still
    Every nerve in my body is so naked and numb
    I can't even remember what it was I came here to get away from
    Don't even hear the murmur of a prayer
    It's not dark yet, but it's getting there


    This has some significance personally as I make my way out of London after living here for 10 amazing years.

    I followed the river Thames so many times and now I got to the sea as I head back home to Malta in 2 weeks' time.

     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2016
  17. Kattefjaes

    Kattefjaes Mostly Harmless

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    Hey, @Muse Wanderer - the PM system is bugging out and not letting me start conversations again, and I have a question for you.. I will sneak it into this thread, which you have been haunting...

    Which work was it that you were using to embarass various headphones at the show? I liked the sound of it when the violins weren't hiding.. but forgot what it was. I want to say Bruckner, but I'm not sure even of that. What was it? Actually, if you could recommend a specific recording, too, that would probably save some poking about..

    Thanks in advance :)
     
  18. aufmerksam

    aufmerksam Friend

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    In the early years I have no reason to doubt this, but recent instances of "creative production" (Love & Theft... Modern Times ... his own memoir Chronicle!!) are replete with entire copy/paste of other people's work. It should be acknowledged that I am a Dylan fan, and have been for a long time. I have listened to just about everything he has recorded. I still think much of his early work is amazing, for the time, and still. BUT...

    I stomached the accusations after Love & Theft (it can be argued that in some ways the set up is literally broadcast to the listener in advance...), but I still remember when the business with Modern Times came out. I was in law school at the time, and was listening through the (massive) back-catalog of bootlegs and alt-basement tapes. I had enjoyed Modern Times, but learning that the lyrics were not his own, hardly at all, was a significant blow to authenticity. Especially from someone who started out writing beautiful lyrics that others performed. He was if anything a lyricist first, and his music (and voice...) were the eccentricity you had to reach past. So finding out his lyrics were not his own was pretty damaging to his reputation in my mind.

    Sorry for the dump, I just feel like this has to be brought up if we are still debating/considering the effect of this award. Literary authors that plagiarize are typically run out the business at stage one.
     
  19. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    Some children's TV show... Wiggly wiggly worm. wigglywigglywigglywiggly! Had no idea they were ripping off Dylan's song!
     
  20. Deep Funk

    Deep Funk Deep thoughts - Friend

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    Okay then...

     

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