The Last Jedi Thread (with Spoilers)

Discussion in 'Random Thoughts' started by ultrabike, Jan 8, 2018.

  1. Azimuth

    Azimuth FKA rtaylor76, Friend

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    I don't think anyone could make Star Wars fans happy. Lucas couldn't do it and now Disney can't do it.

    So apparently, no one is up to the task to fit in everyone's mind what it should be because it does not fit their ideal.

    It's easy to say, "I would just do it differently." Dissenting opinion is a good side to be on.

    Ultimately, there is a lot of hype around these movies pushing them more in the mainstream and thus the pushback.
     
  2. BenjaminBore

    BenjaminBore Friend

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    This argument conflates a few separate issues:
    Is it “Star Wars”? Does it grow what “Star Wars” was in a meaningful way? And most of all, are they great films?

    I’d say borderline, nope, and absolutely nope.
     
  3. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    I dunno man, based on what I saw all it takes is to engage your little ship's hyperdrive and light speed crash into a Star Destroyer to make it go bye bye. Which to me is a severe Star Destroyer design flaw.

    Hell, f**k it. Just make a hyper drive enabled jumbo missile with shit tons of boom boom. That's gotta be cheaper than a Star Destroyer, and now you don't need too loose precious rebel lives (though that does subtract from the gratuitous drama).

    Now, if a small fleet of fighters can take down a Star Destroyer, then that is an even more severe Star Destroyer design flaw.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2018
  4. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Lucas and Disney cannot do it. But I disagree that anyone could not make SW fans happy.

    The latest movies are marred obvious issues that even lower budget space operas, even old ones, don't have.

    The inability of Disney to put anything of sufficient quality is very real. I'm not just winning. I really have not watched Solo because I'm tired of wasting my money on bullshit. Thor Ragnarok was IMO money better spent. I laughed my ass off, and didn't facepalm myself to no end.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2018
  5. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

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    Holdo was on a capital ship. It wasn’t as big as Snoke’s ship, but it was still huge compared to a star fighter.

    And if you want a design flaw, how about an A-Wing accidentally barrel rolling into the bridge of a super star destroyer and taking it out?
     
  6. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Yup. That was another WTF moment for me. ROTJ was shit. Even though IMO it was not as shitty as TLJ.

    The only one I really liked was The Empire Strikes Back. It had it's issues, but it went downhill from there.

    Some of those takes are like some unstable soldier running with his AK47 or M16 against an M1 Abram's tank. What do I think is going to happen? I think that dude is going to be blown to pieces. Graphically so. But in the SW universe, think again.
     
  7. gepardcv

    gepardcv Almost "Made"

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    Not true. The Dave Filoni animated TV projects are widely liked in the fandom. Clone Wars and Rebels both, by and large, told solid Star Wars stories. Better than the newer movies even in the filler episodes, and truly excellent in the best story arcs. Better than the OT, frankly — frequently quite shades-of-grey and grown-up. (Search around for “must see story arcs” in Clone Wars to get a sense of the best episodes.)

    It’s obvious that the animated series production team loves and respects Star Wars. There is closure with Maul, whom Lucas completely wasted in the PT. For fans of Zahn’s excellent Thrawn books — Thrawn is brought back, and in a very good way (considering the EU reset happened).

    Why some of that writing talent does not get used for the big movies, I don’t know. Based on what I see, it would take about the same money and effort to write a good SW movie as a bad one. Instead, we get drek like TFA and especially TLJ, which read to me like a huge “f**k you” to Star Wars fans who have spent decades looking for and building consistency in that universe.
     
  8. Azimuth

    Azimuth FKA rtaylor76, Friend

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    Marvel Studios and Lucas films are all owned by Disney.
     
  9. Azimuth

    Azimuth FKA rtaylor76, Friend

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    If you don't like them for being mainstream now and more accessible to the widestream to the public instead of underground TV shows, cartoons, and books, then that is fine. Don't like it for those reasons.

    Anyone is going to have issues. Changing hands like this is kind of like changing lead singers or when the band signs to a major label. I wonder if Elvis had the same issues when he signed to RCA or when Ray Charles signed to Columbia?

    I know I am poking the bear, but that is just kind of what I see. They may not be the best or live up to the originals or even follow the same things the TV show had. The TV cartoons were only so popular you know. We are just entering an era where Disney needs a cash cow as Mickey Mouse and gang are getting a bit older and can't pull the same childhood magic they once did. They are no longer creating stuff and Pixar, Marvel, and Lucas were already doing, so they just brought them under the Disney umbrella. So this means a new Star Wars movie every year...every year. There is also Star Wars merch now everywhere..everywhere. Not to mention there is going to be a Toy Story 4 just so Disney can continue that legacy and put their Disney paws all over it.

    So if you don't want to like it for those reasons, I am onboard. Otherwise, they are still fine enjoyable movies. I enjoyed them much more so than Ready Player One...I mean there is deviations from the book, and then there are deviations from the book. Read the book, it is way better. But that is a whole other discussion.

    Anyways, just realize that it is Disney trying to cash in. They have to weave a fine line of paying homage to the past as well as pushing the envelope while keeping a really wide audience. They actually brought in Ron Howard on Solo because the other director they thought was taking a bit to far....because of the fan blacklash from The Last Jedi. So be careful what you wish for.
     
  10. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    :(
     
  11. BillOhio

    BillOhio Friend

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    I listened to a bit of Kevin Smith interviewing the two guys who've been writing the Avengers movies and one of their comments was that they don't get notes from Disney. I don't know that having Disney as a parent company immediately translates to being given creative constraints by Disney Execs.

    And writing a Star Wars movie that fans would go nuts over REALLY shouldn't be that hard with a quarter billion dollar budget. Writing a coherent plot line would be a good place to start.
     
  12. Za Warudo

    Za Warudo Acquaintance

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    Oh, the delicious irony of a Star Wars fan complaining about the lack of American auteurs in mainstream American cinema.
     
  13. BillOhio

    BillOhio Friend

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    I think the idea is that suddenly in the Star Wars Universe star destroyers and presumably death stars are vulnerable to a light speed engine as projectile (I guess on a manned ship or auto piloted ship or torpedo). This creates a lot of 'Well why didn't they just...' and even worse, to me, it changes the physics of 'Star Wars' as we knew it. This is my issue also with hologram Luke and Leah in space. To quote Han Solo "That's not how the force works" and to paraphrase Han Solo "That's not how light speed works", at least not in the cinematic universe that I'm going to pay to see.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2018
  14. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

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    It’s not that way until it is. These are all fictional stories, and none of the things people took issue with in TLJ broke the universe for me and a large contingent of other fans. Of course if it bothers you, it bothers you and that’s okay, and I’m sorry that you didn’t enjoy the movie because I genuinely wish everyone enjoyed TLJ and Solo as much as I did. I don’t want anyone to have a bad time at the movies.
     
  15. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    In all likelihood there are great American authors. Just like there are all over the world. But you know how the world is. You got to kiss up to the man, and the man is always right. Even when the man, while politically able, is mentally challenged in most all other areas. I would be surprised if many great authors that value their work would be eager to hack it in order to kiss up. So in all likelihood only the kiss-up scripts make it to production. But who knows.

    BTW, again, Empire Strikes Back may not have been the best example of good authorship. The I-am-Your-Father bullshit threw me off a bit. But for the most part, it delivered a more human and not-so-mindless antagonist. Vader is awesome in that sequel.

    "Don't fail me again, Admiral", "He is as clumsy as he is stupid. General, prepare your troops for a surface attack", "Perhaps you think you have been treated unfairly?", all those lines and the background of it all IMO mirror a very real, don't f**k with me, military leader that I have not often seen in many space operas.

    The arrival of the Super Star Destroyer to Hut is awesome. In my mind back then, a Mon Calamari ship making a light speed kamikaze run into it would result in the Super Star Destroyer automatically discharging fire power to annihilate the cruiser on it's tracks before you could say pronto. (Yeah RotJ fucked this up. Sucks to be us.)

    I would expect all the Imperial capital ships to out run any rebel flying shack easily. Not the oh shit we can't catch up to them crap. Really!!!? I was face-palming myself hard when the f'ing top of the line start destroyer could not catch up to an outdated Mon Calamari ship. Why f**k! Why are these guys loosing to the "First Order" when their ships have 1/2 mule for horse power?

    Basically, it seems the writers cannot come up with a believable solution for the rebels. And resort to cheap God-Ex-Machina bullshit. That, is poor authorship. And again, I would not be surprised if a perfectly plausible scenario is put on the table, only to have an idiot with decision power beat it down because it's not flashy enough, or is too crude, or it doesn't have enough "drama", or it needs to involve adorable teddy bears or crazy chickens.

    It had good special effects, and in that sense it was entertaining. But the content was shit.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2018
  16. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Don't know if you are referring to me, but I ain't a Star Wars fan.
     
  17. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    I'm now a Game of Thrones fan actually. Yeah it's not perfect. Nite Pimp Olympic dragon throw was a heck of a WTF moment for me. But I'm eagerly awaiting for the next season. Couldn't care less for "Solo"

    It's a shame really. All that budget for SW films, and that's what they show up with.
     
  18. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    f**k you Disney. You ruined my adult childhood.
     
  19. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    In retrospect, Akbar in ROTJ could have lightspeeded his squid cruiser into the DS2. But I'm willing to accept pink haired general's suicide mission as a device for moving the plot forward, or sort of moving it forward.

    The thing that bugged me most was the silent aftermath scene. It's too pretentious, too obviously artsy-fartsy. Many millienials thought the silence was the most awesome directorial technique ever invented. But the superior Director never calls attention to himself. This is why I detest Zhang Yimou but love Spielberg. Spielberg engages the audience without having to remind them "ain't I great". I suspect Rian Johnston didn't know WTF to do in that sort of pivotal scene because of his lack of experience, hence resorted to a cheap trick.

    I also did not like in TLJ how the pink haired general was like the worse boss ever. I get the SJW thing, not a fan of it, but I get it. By why not do SJW properly and make her an awesome boss, an awesome leader? Good leaders understand the limitations of those who work under them and put them in situations where they can succeed. All pinko needed to do was to communicate to hot-headed fly-boy the plan, and many deaths might have been avoided.

    All in all, TLJ wasn't a bad movie. I actually like how Luke was handled - things and people always change in real life, especially after 40 years. Yoda giggling while burning everything down was the best part.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2018
  20. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    There are still quite a few in mainstream cinema, I named one in my last post, but Spielberg is retired, among many other greats.

    Really, it's more a matter of the medium budget movies getting crowded out by the franchises. But kudos to Fox Searchlight in the past 17 months or so for being willing to take risks. The big movies cost so much to make that Disney is being cheap on the directors and main actors. I understand the concept of blockblusters (I treated myself to Pacific Rim 2) but it does seem that basic directorial competence and / or charismatic actors to carry a film past its flaws are lacking.

    This shit makes stuff like Terminator 2, Transformers 1, Jurassic Park 1, Independence Day 1, and True Lies look like masterpieces.

    As an aside: John Boyega's talents are severely under-utilized in these latest SW movies. He could have been the Han / Harrison Ford of this series. Fricking Rian Johnson...
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2018

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