the one where Campfire and LH Labs clear the air a bit

I'll reply the same as I did over at Head-Fi - to the tripe of a reply that LH Labs just made

So sue them - but you won't will you (you know you'd lose). Because everyone with any sense knows that Ken Ball is right, and you blatantly ripped off their design. And don't try to muddy the waters. This isn't discussion about the Asteria - its about a different sample which Ken sent separately, has asked repeatedly for its return, and suddenly you come up with a very similar match in driver config and the internal chamber.

Further to that, you try and cast him as the villain? Do you think you are dealing with pre-schoolers here? The one IEM you originally made flopped - it was terrible. Then all of a sudden you've graduated from that to an extremely good design, and its all been your expertise. Pull the other one.

We know Ken. Trustworthy, extremely good reputation backed by years of stellar service and solid design.

We also know LH Labs. Con artists, who haven't delivered the products promised (yet still went on making more and more sales even though they knew they couldn't deliver), consistent liars, and now copyright breakers.

You should issue an apology to Ken - if you were honourable that is. I hope Ken goes after you legally. I for one would be willing to chip in some money to give him a fighting fund to do so.

@KenBall - I mean it too. If you want to go after these guys, I'll be the first to offer to chip in.

 

It'd be more rewarding than backing a LH Labs product .

 

I'll happily fund the exact amount I gave to the pulse campaign just to see the lying bastards go down.

 

Better Business Bureau makes for some interesting reading:
https://www.bbb.org/greater-san-fra...rch/lh-labs-corporation-in-berkeley-ca-878014

 

kickstarter to fund litigation against a crowd-sourcing scam artist; I love it!

 

Three positive customer reviews (vs 18 complaints). Two from Randy T and one from Randy D (at least put some effort into it). One states: "I have made a personal visit to their facility and found the employees to be welcoming and earnest about trying to meet their commitments."

Yes, I believe that is true.

 

Like @Brooko i would also enjoy helping a little in that big irony of an action,

 

Wait, so now there's another hybrid collab IEM?

 

I'm so glad the air has been cleared:

 

There is only one - the Asteria which was canceled. People are under the impression there was the Asteria + another unnamed never before mentioned IEM. Ken and Larry have only ever mentioned the Asteria, and Ken has talked about the Asteria as the unreturned IEM, which was the collab. Larry has also backed up Ken's story with details.

 

Yes, but this discussion is about the Stella, not the Asteria.

 

LH is being accused of directly stealing the Asteria's design. This discussion is directly relevant and pertaining to the Asteria vs the Stella.

 

You intentionally omitted something mentioned by Brooko. I respect your strategy but we are not preschool students.

 

You just quoted the whole post, buddy. What exactly are you talking about?

I want to see justice served where it is due, I take intellectual theft very seriously. Right now we don't know much aside from accusations by Ken and defence from LH, plus a ton of assumptions from the folks in this thread. This is about a company with impeccable standing and known for quality against a one with an abysmal track record. I understand how it is easy to assume the worst.

However I also am not willing to jump on the hate train until there is proof that the design for Stella was actually stolen - and I don't see that proof at this time.

Why don't we keep this objective and factual?

 

From my factual side I believe there is reasonable doubt of their innocence.
-their first IEM, the VERB was lauded as a true IEM but ended up being crap. You can find evidence of this on most forums
-take into account their other mishaps from the Pulse,Wave,Source,ViDac,PowerAmp,Stream,Tube buffers that severely damages their credibility.
-the Out was the only completed campaign and what got them launched but that was 5 years ago and I don't believe they could have recovered.
-the fact that Ken sent them a sample which I believe he designed himself and then LH Labs has a very similar design after seems to much of a coincidence
-the contradiction in headfi further damages their credibility
-it is my personal opinion they are desperate and tried to copy a good design which would result in a good product so they have some cash flow
-it's unusual for a company that focuses in dacs and not yet finish a good product to have a successful product in IEM(unless this indicates they dropped the crowd funding campaigns and there is reasonable evidence of this since to my knowledge they haven't shipped anything in over two years?)
-LH Labs hasn't had a single won argument of any of their recent accusation of anything

Those are the facts and it doesn't look good. If this was a jury trial I would vote guilty with this evidence

 

None of that is evidence that they copied the IP. Those are mostly observations and opinions about past performance of LH. Evidence, for example, is when a tear down shows the same design.

 

Yes, they just happened to design a good product*sarcasm* . These are the people who stole 2K from me so I'm bias. This is like you know the guy who is the top drug dealer or villain but there isn't enough evidence to convict because well...they hide it. Common sense says otherwise because then Ken lied and I don't believe that one bit.

 

@m17xr2b

Pointing to the evidence as you have is a more reasonable position than whatever the heck @Brooko was tryna say.

Now, I disagree that these facts you point out constitute actual undeniable proof - they do not. I will agree that the facts do look horrible, but I believe in due process.

I find @LHCommSquad's reply totally reasonable, and am curious what the reply from CA will be... I hope that the truth will come out without too much further obfuscation. And avoiding that is the reason I prefer that people stick to the hard facts before calling their conclusion the truth - we just don't know yet.

One thing is clear. Either Larry is a shithead for theft or Ken is, for false accusation
Or, this is a misunderstanding - that is the nest outcome by my estimation. So until a teardown is done as previously suggested, it is not clear that the internal design of Stella is a ripoff of the Asteria. Additionally, retrieving the Asteria sent to LH would help their case, but it would not completely solve it either.

It's not that I have any skin in the game anyway, its just a pet peeve of mine when people come to conclusions based on incomplete data.

In short, innocent until proven guilty.

 

I feel like the white knighting is almost more baffling than LH having the balls to market the Stella in the first place.

@LHCommSquad, care to explain where LH got the “inspiration” for the cable overmold, cable y-split, and branding (font & background) that you supposedly designed yourselves?

Any explanation for why a lot of the aesthetics still happen to look so similar to a Campfire audio product when you claim that you “don’t want to associate ourselves with any part of that project.”

Do the right thing and try to come up with a truly original design (or at least one that looks original). It would be a real shame if people subconsciously associate the Stella with Campfire Audio if it ends up being as reliable as your other products.

 

[Not a lawyer, I could be off base here but:]

The above are laudable sentiments, but in this instance I believe they are misplaced. The presumption of innocence is a hugely important legal principle, applicable only in criminal trials. The kind where people can end up in jail, or in some jurisdictions, executed. Hence the reason for such a high bar.

This is about IP, and would be a civil matter. In civil matters, the burden of proof is on both parties. There is no "beyond reasonable doubt" to establish, it's about balancing up evidence and deciding what "probably" happened.

So far what we've seen is scant (which is fair enough, this is a bit of shouting on the internet) but to me it seems to be overwhelmingly in favour of one side.