The Sennheiser HD 660 S is straight up an improved HD650

Before buying and listening to the 660 S for myself, I read the 660 S impressions thread on this forum and it influenced me in thinking it was a downgrade. The first 24 hours. I agreed with those impressions because the 650 sound was so ingrained in my head but as I kept listening critically for a week straight, it became more and more apparent that the 660 S is a better headphone over the 600 and 650.


With the 660 S, Sennheiser took the meaty, thick sound signature of the 650 and

• Increased resolution (taround 15% more detailed)
• Faster driver (very much apparant in the bass)
• Furtner reduced the upper mid shouty-ness that plagued the 600 and 650
  
• Kept the treble non fatiguing as the 650
  
• Compared to the 600 directly, I always thought the vocal range on the 650 was ever so slightly recessed and blurry because it was suffocated by the midbass hump and slightly toned down upper mids/treble so they fixed that too. Vocals are more upfront and clearer while still being smooth.

Sennheiser made a better 650 with the 660 S in every way. I frankly don't know what more they could've done. They took the 650 and put a modern engine in it so it can keep up with the competition of today.

 

Upstream gear, reference tracks, other headphones previously owned? Also rather curious about what qualifies as increased resolution per your definition thereof. Not prodding for a fight, just curious to get more nuanced impressions. I do agree that the voicing of the HD650 isn't grand in stock form though (I much prefer the HD600 with basically pancaked pads myself)

Also, don't think this warranted a new thread as the old 660S thread was perfectly serviceable.

 

What is detail to you? everyone seems to have their own theory on what that actually means. I see detail like contrast, that little bit of extra depth to voices without over sharpening. Think a good VA panel which has better depth and low level detail than an IPS or TN type displays when it comes to LCD screens, sure you can throw a wide gamut mode in there with some sharpening to make the colours pop but it's not accurate, some simple sRGB mode with full coverage and a solid contrast is going to give you a more accurate and detailed image.

My point, the HD650 has better contrast than most people give it credit for, it might be a bit dull, maybe a bit muted. I see the HD650 as the more refined, resolving headphone personally, the HD660S sounds a bit too aggressive, forced in comparison pretty consistency across different gear(SDAC +Asgard 2 are my fav reference) albeit maybe a bit more perception to clarity but what kind of listener are you? do you prefer over sharpened? or do you want well calibrated?

As for keeping up with the competition, well the HD650 does punch above it's weight when it comes to refinement, timbre, treble smoothness, so much in-fact that people often use it as a reference to compare to more expensive, "modern" headphones. Do I think the HD650 is a world beater? nope, I find it a bit dull for my current taste but that doesn't mean I don't see it's strengths and I think it's strengths are still a cut above the HD660S which in my opinion is a filler product by Sennheiser rather than a true extension to their HD600 line up.

If you prefer the HD660S then godspeed to you but I do think a little more information like music taste, gear used it's helpful because both headphones despite being form the same company, they may respond differently and be a better match for the HD660S.

 

I think the 660 S comes across as brighter than the 650 and at a first glance, I also thought the 660 sounded brighter for no reason but that’s because I was accustomed to the sound of the 650 for over a decade. You don’t know the clarity and resolution you’re missing on the 650 until you go back to it after some days.

At the end of the day, audiophiles obsess about details, frequency response, etc. online because we have a minor case of OCD. We don’t listen to the music - we listen to the equipment.

The question is, why are the HD600/650 so beloved when the the HD580 is so close in performance? Why bother with the 6XX when the 58X gets you 95% there? People thought the 650 sounded worse than the 600 when it came out 15 years ago.

Audiophiles obsess over the details. The interesting thing about all of this is the community’s rejection of all the subtle improvements Sennheiser has made to the 650. The 660 S might be more appreciated in 10 years. I think people are too attached to the 650.

 

Don't know the 650 personally. I could still be very attached to the HD600, though, if, due to HF hearing loss, I had not moved on to the HD800.

I think you'll find, all the HD6nn family discussed, pros, cons warts and all. And my impression is that "the community" would welcome upgrades to both the HD600/650 and the HD800 with open arms if they found them to be actually better. After all, Sennheiser has had long enough.

I don't think your attribution of OCD, stick-in-the-mud, audiophoolery is true of this community at all. It doesn't mind giving due credit to something just because it's a couple of decades old, and it does expect something better of something a couple of decades younger.

 

That's interesting. Can you give me a specific song and a specific portion of the track that will show this? I'd love to hear for myself.

 

Many of us do argue Senn got it right with the 580 and prefer it over anything they’ve released since. The 580 is my daily driver.

We love the 650 here not because it’s the best headphone ever made and cannot be topped, but because it is a quality headphone that does show the ability of upstream gear to move up in quality and gets more right than it gets wrong. It’s also now available for around $200 via Drop which makes it an incredible bargain considering most of the headphones in that price range. It’s a well known reference that responds well to modding and is common enough that we all can refer to it and use it to calibrate our preferences against each other. You’re using too broad of a brush to characterize why we hold the 650 in high esteem here.

 

I personally like the HD660s more than the 650 but it is a preference thing. I dont like the upper mids of the 650 so the more laid back 3-4k region of the 660s is more pleasant to me. I also think the 660s does beat the 650 in imaging capability, its got much less of the "3 blob" effect going on. That was the main technical improvement I heard, along with subjectively the 660s sounding "faster". Gaming on the 660s was a far better experience than gaming on a 650. I didnt really find it to be more detailed than the 650 personally even on modest setups

That being said I havent heard a 650 on a ultra high end setup, so I am not sure if a high end amp/dac would improve the 650 imaging wise.

The 650 wins in terms of timbre though, so its really a trade off between the two.

Main reason the 6xx is a better choice in most cases though is the price, the 660s is just too damn expensive in a world you can get the 6xx for less than half its price. A new audiophile would be much better served getting a 6xx, a magni and Modi than the 660s for the same price just used with their pc or phone sans amp/dac.

Also a BIG note, if you are comparing a 650 to a 660s with the 650 having old worn earpads, you are not at all getting a accurate comparison. THe 6xx series earpads have a massive massive effect on the overall FR. The more worn they are the warmer, darker and veiled it gets. Swap the earpads between the two and you will be quite shocked at what you hear.

 

Too bad to see you were harshly responded. But please don't misunderstand SBAF as a whole worships HD650 blindly. Not everyone in SBAF likes 650 (The majority does tho). Not everyone likes it the same way. Not everyone hates 660S (I know at least couple of well respected members treasure 660S over 650). And so forth. There is a rather good diverse spectrum of opinions on older and newer Sennheiser.

That said, the primary problem is concisely described in the second paragraph in @Lyander 's first reply. Read it as many times until you are convinced.

Another survival tip from me is when your evaluation or perception differs from the majority in the forum, personalize your assertions as much as possible. Let me simply paraphrase the first two points in OP:

• I could hear more details with 660S. Particularly in gear X, in music Y, to taste Z.
• 660S's bass feels tighter and faster than 650 in track A, condition B, another condition C, etc.

The assertion per se didn't change (much). But reception would be largely different. We all know the nature of this hobby.

To add, in this subjective hobby, generalization does more harm than good unless you are well qualified (only a few are. Myself not included). For normal mortals, we'd better try to say "I like this (over that) because of the way this sounds." -- that's actually the first tip I got from Marv years ago when I was a full noob.

PS. Just making clear that I am not a big fan of 660S, but think 58X pretty good for what it is. And I have very mixed view on 650 (regardless of mods) and what it is claimed/hyped capable of. I always have 650 sitting around me to check everything myself as well.

 

The HD650/6xx legacy was discussed just recently here. And I remember saying in that thread that it was good to have the discussion there, for people who may not be aware of the history here or what it really means to different members. There really is a diversity of opinion when it comes to those headphones (and their closest relatives) - that thread makes it clear that SBAF is not an HD650 monolith. It's not as simple as it may seem.

Kind of drawn out, but you don't have to read the whole thing to get the gist, I think. It doesn't truly start until page 2, if you want to save some time. Even this isn't really the full picture. Just a good petri dish sample of what emerges from the collective unconscious here lol
https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/hatedis650-oh-god-the-dark-side-please-don’t.10847/

 

The HD660 S is not a downgrade. It is an evolution of the HD600 and HD650 which are evolutions of the HD580 and its predecessors.

In Germany, I had the privilege to try it at its debut. There was also a German Head-Fi, Headfonia whatever audio dorks meeting so hey, it was fun.

The HD660 S was not bad but it was not much better than a HD600 or HD650 either (in my humble opinion). Then came the retail price, f**k no.

For that money you could build a very nice audio system for a HD580/600/650 and still have money on the bank.

Keep your HD660 S and enjoy it. Next time you have a new revelation for us, please do not underestimate the experience we have in audio. Ask first.

 

I heard HD540 I own 560,650 and had HD600 for 2 years. Never had a chance to listen to HD580. Can you elaborate why they you think HD580 is better?

 

yeah it was originally a FS thread. Too bad I should have just started an “I hate the HD650” thread instead of being goofy

 

Honestly? I don't think it would have been the same. It ended up working out

 

I kind of agree. It reminded me of the Beyerdynamic DT480, the smoother voiced DT48 cousin. (Yes, I had some weird headphones.) That driver needs a bit of juice though.

P.S. Beyerdynamic sometimes gets it right. Thing is Sennheiser made the HD250 II Linear. Guess who wins for me?

 

I actually agree with the OP ‍♂️

I own the 58x, 6xx and 660s, and I find the 660s to be the best of the three. To my ear, its slightly more refined and has slightly better technical performance than the 650/6xx. When switching between the two on well recorded tracks, for example stuff from Michael Jackson's "Thriller" album, the difference in detail is readily apparent to me.

The 660s also has slightly wider soundstage, and the way that it portrays that sound stage is superior to the 6xx for me. Instrument separation and imaging are superior on the 660s to my ear. The soundstage is less 3 blob, and feels a bit more "3D" in comparison to the 6xx's more "2D" presentation (I realize that description is cringey but its difficult to describe. The 660s sound more like I'm listening to speakers if that makes sense).

Its not perfect though. The upper treble is fairly lacking, to the point where even the 650/6xx sounds sparkly in comparison on some tracks. I do appreciate that its non-fatiguing, in line with that 6 series sound, but it sounds a bit muted on the top end.

The problem is the price. I got the 660s for $400, and for that price I think its sort of worth it, but I got the 6xx for $180 originally (back when it was $200 - $20 drop credit). So even at a -$100 sale price the improvements the 660s brings are just not worth an extra $200. At its retail price of $500 is just sort of a bad value- it should not cost that much. IMO it should retail for $350 or perhaps $400, as I believe the normal msrp for the 650 is $350 correct? $400 would account for the slight improvements, newer driver, slightly nicer looking build, and inclusion of balanced cable. I think the $500 price tag is what turns many people off, and for a lot of people just that small negative bias going into it affects their impressions of the 660s.

So yeah I agree its a "better" 650/6xx. That was difficult for me to admit and took a lot of back and forth listening. The price and value proposition is the real issue. Just for transparency, I'm running off a schiit Hel dac/amp, so I'm not sure if I could realize better performance out of the 6xx with a better setup. As I understand it, the Hel is basically a Modi 3 dac and half-powered heresy amp portion. I listen at relatively low volumes (65-70db peaks) so I don't really need the extra power.