The Sports/Fitness Thread

Discussion in 'Random Thoughts' started by OJneg, Oct 21, 2015.

  1. yotacowboy

    yotacowboy McRibs Kind of Guy

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    This strikes near home for me. About 10 years ago I went through a roughly 18 month bout of sciatica due to my sciatic nerve being lucky enough to pass through a hip flexor rather than around it. Got bad enough that I had lost feeling in my foot and calf muscle, and walking was becoming difficult and bordering almost impossible. And at that time I was merely 33 years of age... The *only* thing i could still do without pain was riding my bike. It's strange how you learn to love the pain that you can control as an escape from the pain you can't control. So, i guess, to pose a retort to the perception that cycling is a kinda "meh" as a fitness endeavor, I'd say it ends up being more a question of mental fortitude. I've learned more about myself and how far I'm willing to go into the pain cave while training and racing bikes than anything else I've ever done. And I'm not trying to sound all full of it, or even claiming I'm "good" at riding bikes fast, I'm just trying to be honest about my experience with a sport that gets trashed as (more or less) being full of a bunch of skinny narcissistic whiney pussies. There's also the death-wish side of things with experiencing pure insanity speed in situations where millimeters of deviance in tire placement can mean the difference between winning a race and crashing out and going to the hospital. Cause railing the shit out of a corner at beyond-race-pace on a bike is pretty f'ing awesome.
     
  2. zonto

    zonto Friend

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    Quick update from the above and then I'll shut up for a while. Went hiking on Saturday and did 8.1 miles and around 2,400 feet elevation gain with zero right knee pain and just the beginnings of some in my left knee and hip right at the end (walking back to the parking lot). No residual knee or hip pain yesterday, and I could go up and down stairs just fine even on Saturday. In less than a week, I've also already noticed an increase in number of reps I can do per set with the PT exercises described above.

    In case others find it helpful, a couple other resources for hikers:
    • Downhill technique that I employed wherever possible: (YouTube video link). Sometimes with the larger rocks/steps on the trail using that technique is not possible, so I would try to go down backwards on those just to save the knees.
    • I think I'm going to pay for this course as this guy's videos and other guides have been helpful so far, even just in the last two weeks: https://basecamptraining.com.au/mountain-proof-knees/.
    I went from feeling rather hopeless a couple Saturdays ago given the intense knee pain, to feeling rather optimistic this past Saturday. Not only hopeful that I can finish the Mt. Washington hike this summer, but that by stretching and doing these targeted exercises I'm correcting years of inactivity in these muscles and hopefully addressing and eliminating the root case of the pain.

    A side benefit of all of this: my somewhat chronic low back pain has been reduced substantially over the past two weeks as well. I assume that's because by stabilizing my hip abductors I'm also keeping my sacrum more stable.

    Something else that has helped a lot? Going to bed earlier...
     
  3. Gazny

    Gazny MOT: ETA Audio

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    Not everyday we have a legendary figure as big as Joey Chestnut
     
  4. zonto

    zonto Friend

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    Update on hiking / IT band syndrome / Mt. Washington, as promised:

    TL;DR:
    I hiked up and down Mt. Washington a couple weeks ago, which is the highest point in New England and home to some crazy weather and amazing views (assuming you're not in the clouds at the summit). 8.4 miles round-trip and about 4,200 feet of elevation gain/drop. 10.5 hours total. Took much longer than expected because I had knee issues from ITBS that started on the ascent and got worse on the descent, so I went slow (and often backwards on all-fours on the way down). I learned a lot from the experience and my preparations for it, so have written more details under the spoiler tag below for anyone interested in reading.

    To continue my training updates from above, on May 28, 2022, I hiked 6.1 miles with 3,100 feet of elevation gain/drop without knee or hip pain. Was the perfect stopping point as I was starting to get stiff. There is one trail up Mt. Wachusett (about an hour west of Boston) that's about 550 feet up and a half-mile long. Did six laps up and down that day. Was using that as elevation training for Mt. Washington, with eventual goal of doing eight laps with the full daypack to approximate how the real hike would be.

    During the week after the above hike, I overstretched and had some hip pain. On June 4, 2022 I did a longer hike with less elevation gain (8.3 miles, 991 feet). Some left hip pain near the end, but no knee issues.

    After this hike, things went downhill (figuratively) in June and early July*:
    • I took the next weekend off due to lingering hip pain.
    • I then overdid it in the gym with calf raises and had a calf strain on the left side and some swelling around my achilles on the right. Didn't want to risk hiking on either with any meaningful elevation, so took another week off.
    • Then at the end of June my entire family came down with COVID. I was hit the hardest for some reason. Was the only one that was throwing up, etc. Within about five days, I had lost 7-8 pounds, which is nearly 5% of my body weight. I had no appetite, so when I could keep food down I was eating about half of what I used to and was losing more weight.
    • Also cancelled a few PT appointments for the above issues.
    The Mt. Washington trip was scheduled for the middle of July. The Friday before we left I went to my last PT appointment. Doing the same exercises I had done 2-3 weeks earlier no problem was now very difficult. I was super sweaty, still had respiratory issues from COVID, and everyone still has to wear a mask in PT offices due to federal regulations. :rolleyes: I was sore for maybe three days after that appointment. I don't have a lot of body fat or water weight. It was clear I had lost a lot of strength and muscle due to COVID and not being able to hit the trails for so long.

    On July 15, 2022 I still decided to try to hike Mt. Washington up the Tuckerman's Ravine trail. 4.2 miles up with 4,200 feet of elevation gain. I was good for about the first 2.5 miles and roughly 2,000 feet. Then the tough part starts as you climb the ravine wall. My right knee was starting to hurt already. Given the knee pain started going uphill, this had to be plain old weakness in my legs given the strength loss with COVID and not having hiked for so long. Once you get up the ravine wall, the final 0.8 mile or so ascent to the peak is 99% bouldering and scrambling; Hardly any trail at all; just cairns and occasional yellow paint on a rock. It took a total of four hours to get to the summit, I took 1.5 hours for lunch and to stretch, and then I almost decided to take the shuttle down for $50.

    I convinced myself to hike down though given this has been a goal of mine for so long. During the first couple miles of the descent, I was mostly scrambling down rocks and boulders in reverse, on all fours, to avoid adding to the right knee pain and stiffness. Once I got down the ravine wall three to four hours later, I was back on the normal trail and could walk normally downhill for the last couple miles. Total time for the descent was about five hours. Started at 7:30am and finished at 6pm. 8.4 miles and around 4,200 feet of elevation gain and drop.

    -----

    * I also took a weekend off in June for dance and piano recitals on the same day. Excluded from the bulleted list because this was a planned/fun day off. Super proud of my daughter!

    REFLECTION

    After reflecting on the experience, I'm torn. Given my training went sideways so fast and I was still getting over COVID when I hiked, it probably wasn't the smartest thing to attempt the hike. As far as respiratory issues go, I was fine, which was encouraging. Adrenaline and patience, with adapted technique, got me through it. I achieved a goal I've had for years, had great weather while doing it, had 70+ miles of visibility at the top, and was able to meet my wife and daughter (who took a train up) for pictures while I was there. We have some great pictures and memories, my daughter gave me a huge running hug when I got to the top, and I still get emotional thinking about the whole experience.

    However, after having so many positive experiences hiking without pain through the end of May, I am still disappointed with how I did physically on the hike. I did my best and made it down safely, which is the most important thing. It's incredibly frustrating to think that I lost in only a week or two the results from months of hard work in the gym and on the trail because of COVID. Even after working out regularly for the last couple weeks, I'm still not up to the same level as I was before everything went downhill in June, which is also frustrating. The weakness caused me to not trust my body as much on the trail, and stress and fatigue started to play some mind games with me on the descent. I was surprised how hard the mental component of the descent was, to say nothing of the physical difficulty. Could have been a bit dehydrated by that point too.

    So, while I was hoping that this would be a turning point in my physical health journey and that I could say I had put the right knee pain and ITBS behind me, that's not the case yet. I have more work to do there. I'm still putting in the work at the gym, and will hit the trails again once the July and August heatwave subsides. Bodies are frustrating, and just when you think you have something figured out you realize how fragile we are and how much more there is to learn. I'm proud of what I accomplished, I'm proud of the work I put in (had gained around 15-20 pounds of mostly muscle since March 2020 before getting COVID this year), and I hope that continued effort continues to pay dividends as I saw glimpses of in May when I hiked without pain.

    Best of luck to everyone else in their health journeys, and I'd love to hear how you are doing, goals you've achieved or are working toward, and frustrations you've had or are still experiencing.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2022
  5. randytsuch

    randytsuch Friend

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    [​IMG]
    my gym
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    Yesterday tried the 12/3/30 workout on the treadmill.
    12 degree incline at 3 mph for 30 mins
    But I cheated, mostly at 10 degs with a slowdown in middle from 3 to 2 mph for a min, for about 25 mins. Still a good workout, going to work my way up to 12/3/30
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2022
  6. randytsuch

    randytsuch Friend

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    Thought I would resurrect this thread.
    I've been running on my treadmill pretty consistently, except for a vacation/covid break for around a month last fall.
    Was up to 2.5-3 miles a day, 4-5 days a week. And weekend 2 mile dog walks in my hilly neighborhood.

    Lately my calfs have been bothering me. They have been somewhat sensitive to pressure for a while. Now I've had to curtail my running for the past few weeks, I've had pain just walking around.

    Trying a few things. Have an elliptical too, so this week I've been using that instead of the treadmill. Putting less stress on my calfs.
    Bought some calf compression sleeves. Trying the CEP brand. They seem to help.
    Also stretching them more, mornings and evenings at a minimum. If I work out, before and after the workout.
    Calfs feeling better, so hopefully improving.

    Randy
     
  7. ergopower

    ergopower Friend

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    Just a thought - if you have been doing your routine for some months, did something else change? Shoes are the first thing that come to my mind. Either new ones with some difference, or the original ones are worn out in the midsole, not the outsole.
     
  8. yotacowboy

    yotacowboy McRibs Kind of Guy

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    Not a runner, but a cyclist, and I highly recommend looking into a weekly deep tissue or trigger point massage therapy session. Shouldn't need to be more than 30 minutes. Flush out that bad juice in the muscles and loosen up that myofascia!
     
  9. randytsuch

    randytsuch Friend

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    I actually looked at new shoes this past week. I bought a custom liner that I just started to use, but returned the shoe because I really need a 2E width and they didn't have it right now. I have a short (7 1/2), wide foot, makes it harder to find shoes.
    I do think the custom insole is a good thing regardless. I can feel the better arch support.
    My existing ones may be wearing out, I don't replace them very often.

    I'm pretty cheap, so unlikely to go to massage therapy. But I do have a massage gun I've used occasionally, will pull it out and use it more on my calfs.

    Something else I forgot to mention. I think most of my problems started a few weeks ago when I was trying to rush a workout, and didn't warm up long enough. So when I started to run, I got a cramp in my right calf. Had to quit and I think that was really when I started having issues.
     
  10. zonto

    zonto Friend

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    @randytsuch, over time I've learned that when something is sore for more than a day or two it means it's being overused, it's weak, or both. It sounds like this may be an overuse issue. If you're not careful, you could experience Achilles tendinopathy or a calf strain. Make sure to listen to your body here. You may want to see a PT just in case.

    If your exercise is exclusively focused on running, I'd consider the following:
    • Supplementing one or two running days with strength and mobility training instead. Many runners have weak or immobile hips, bums and ankles, which can cause issues as your body tries to compensate. Have you checked to confirm whether you have sufficient dorsiflexion? (see this YouTube video re: improving dorsiflexion to test). Given running as your focus, with the supplemental work I'd focus on core and posterior chain, plus upper body to taste.
    • Consider your footwear. Have you recently changed shoes (as @ergopower asked)? Shoes that have a lower (or zero) drop or that have lots of cushioning can be problematic for some people. The lower the drop, the more your calf and Achilles complex stretches. You'd need to ease into running in those kinds of shoes or risk injury. I do think that lower or zero drop shoes are the healthier option long-term as it gets you closer to natural gait mechanics, but they may not work for some people.
    • Consider whether you're drinking enough water, getting enough electrolytes, sleeping well (giving your body enough time to recover). Consider too whether you have a calcium and/or magnesium deficiency (many people do). If you have a magnesium deficiency, your muscles are unable to relax as easily and thus can get tighter and more sore. With a calcium deficiency, they may not fire properly.
    • Consider your running gait. Where do you strike when you land? Perhaps that is causing issues.
    When I've had calf and Achilles tendon issues it was because I was asking too much of my body at that time. I had insertional Achilles tendonitis last year after my biggest hike of my life, which I did while not fully recovered from COVID. It took a couple months to fully resolve. I'm a hiker, but supplement during the week with 2-3 strength training sessions and the like. Stretching actually made my problem worse. What I had to do was relative rest and then slowly increasing the load as the tendon became less angry. It's been a learning process for the last 6 months, and I've had some days where calf workouts at the gym caused them to be extremely tender for the next couple days, telling me to back off a bit. For calves, more reps at lighter weight is the way to go. Working from double leg bodyweight --> weights --> weights + deficit (like off a stair edge, to increase load on Achilles) to single leg bodyweight eccentric (lowering) only --> body weight up/down --> weights --> weight + deficit. Just take it slow.

    Edit: just saw your post re: cramping. Warm-up could be it, but cramping could also be due to the nutritional stuff I posted above.
     
  11. yotacowboy

    yotacowboy McRibs Kind of Guy

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    I'm pretty cheap, too, so I try to get my insurance to cover it!

    I also agree that cramping issues are typically nutritionally-based. Stretching pre- and post excercise has marginal benefit. But incorporating a stretching routine into your wake and presleep habits is where it can make a significant difference!.
     
  12. edd

    edd Almost "Made"

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    I also have relatively wide feet & have a tendency for blisters on my big toe (Nikes are generally a no-go for me), and I found that Mizuno Wave Riders are good for running. The toe box in particular is nice and wide in the 2E size. If you prefer a lighter (and less cushioned) shoe, the On Cloudflow Wide have also worked for me; though, they're not as wide as the Wave Riders. And, for reference, these days I'm running 3-4 miles/day 3-4 days/week on a treadmill.

    I can't say I've experienced calf pain from running on a treadmill; though, I have had calf soreness from an elliptical when cranking up the resistance.
     
  13. crazychile

    crazychile Eastern Iowa's Spiciest Pepper

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    I used to get leg cramps all the time if I'd been working out. I increased my Magnesium supplementation significantly and I almost never get them any more. Also if any of you guys take high blood pressure meds, most of them deplete the body of magnesium.
     
  14. randytsuch

    randytsuch Friend

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    @edd @yotacowboy @zonto

    Thanks for the information.

    I have been cutting back on running since my calf really started to bother me. Ran once last week and only elliptical this week. Elliptical doesn't cause the same problems, at least not so far.

    On the shoe front, at the time I was shopping my daughter complained she was hungry, and we were visiting her for her birthday, so I cut the shopping short, and ended up with a shoe I returned. The flagship Roadrunner store is in San Diego, close to her.
    While I was there, the guy made a video of me running on a treadmill. Said I needed a stability shoe, and that my aches were collapsing, so I bought the custom insoles.
    I was planning to go for a more cushiony shoe, now wondering about that. I've been using a New Balance 990 for years, and have been happy with them, maybe I'll just get another pair?

    I was also thinking about asking my doctor for physical therapy. But since I feel better lately I'm putting it off. I went a few years ago for a pain in my inner thigh. It helped, but also takes a lot of time. And insurance covered some of it, but still some out of pocket expenses. I've also gone to acupuncture, and it helped

    EDIT:
    For other types of exercise, a couple times a week, I do core exercises before work, and also do a couple days of upper body stuff with dumb bells. That is to stay somewhat toned, not for any bulk.

    Randy
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2023
  15. Cspirou

    Cspirou They call me Sparky

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    Most of my cramps typically are when I flex a muscle in a position it isn’t used to. So when I have my leg completely extended and with the toes pointing out, my calf or feet might cramp. Also if my arms are reaching a difficult spot behind my back I might cramp up too

    I agree that nutrition is important but I think regularly doing a full range of motion is important too
     
  16. zonto

    zonto Friend

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    @randytsuch, if your arches are collapsing then that could mean you have weak feet. The solution to that is unlikely to be more cushioning, as that would require even less engagement of the muscles in your foot and lower leg than now. Could try going barefoot more or going on short walks and working up to runs in zero drop shoes with minimal cushioning. Toe yoga can also help.

    I would take with a grain of salt what any sales rep at a running shoe store says. They are not physiotherapists.
     
    • Agreed, ditto, +1 Agreed, ditto, +1 x 1
    • List
  17. yotacowboy

    yotacowboy McRibs Kind of Guy

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    I'm not a doctor or anything and I'm simplifying this, but typically muscle cramps occur because one muscle and another muscle opposing it don't work together, or, groups of fibers within a muscle aren't working in unison. This can be due to a lack of blood flow or a lack of control from the nervous system (or both). In other words, if your body/muscles lack the electrolytes necessary for the nerves to properly control the muscles, or the muscles don't have enough blood flow to properly respond to the nerves that control the muscles, muscles can cramp. stretching is good because it elongates and separates the muscle fibers which encourages blood flow, and helps flush out lactic acid and other byproducts of the muscle contracting, but if your nutrition isn't great and you're not hydrating, no amount of stretching is going to alleviate chronic muscle cramps. Stretching only goes so far in breaking up the collagen adhesions that are the root of tight or sore muscles, and that tightness is what's impeding the blood flow the muscles need to respond to nerve stimulus.

    Also, the idea of "warming up" before an exercise activity is less about the temperature of the muscles and more about getting good circulation, and making sure the cardiovascular system is ready to support the blood/nutrient/glucose needs the muscles have while performing work.
     
  18. zonto

    zonto Friend

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    I think there are different types of cramps and that you're both right.

    I've noticed what @Cspirou mentioned above when trying toe yoga like I linked above (cramps in my foot muscles) and when doing some active quad and hamstring stretches. In the latter case, it's because my hamstrings are certainly not used to being flexed with my knee bent, which in turn causes my body to make my quads tighter to compensate. So opposing muscles not working together as @yotacowboy mentioned above.

    The opposite to the calf would be the tibialis anterior, which you could strengthen as shown in this video.

    I've noticed much less cramping overall once getting my magnesium levels up, as noted by @crazychile.
     
  19. ergopower

    ergopower Friend

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    Maybe your problem is completely biochemical as discussed above, in which case ignore what follows

    I totally agree with @zonto re. shoe sales people. This is completely anecdotal, but here's my experience. I am totally flat-footed, but for years I got along fine with ASICS 20xx. At some point they changed the midsole material and I didn't get along with it at all (felt harder underfoot). I went to a shoe store/physical therapy center with a good emphasis on running. The owner is/was a very high-level runner (marathon 2:3x). He had a good look at my gait on a treadmill, noted my lack of arches, and recommended motion-control shoes. I've since experienced that this is the dominant recommendation for flat-footed runners. But they were nearly the end of running for me - they felt OK, though clumsy. But I soon developed some nasty knee issues. So I just started to try shoes. It was at the time of going low/no drop, and 4mm definitely felt better. And weirdly, once I went opposite and tried shoes for high arches (Newtons), which have less side-to-side structure, all problems went away.

    Not at all saying these are for you, but you may need to just try shit on until something feels notably better. Some shoe stores will allow trials as long as you do your running on a treadmill, so you don't necessarily have to buy each one you try.

    Some of this was mentioned above, but the key differentiators in my view:
    Drop - 12mm to 0 or even negative
    Midsole coefficient of rebound - nobody specs this but the shoe guy should be able to rank rebound
    Stiffness - how easy it is to flex the shoe from flat to bent as it is in push-off
    Structure - basically stiffness from side-to-side - neutral, stability, motion control

    Good luck
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2023
  20. randytsuch

    randytsuch Friend

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    Thanks for the long posts guys, very informative, @ergopower , @yotacowboy , @zonto , @Cspirou

    On water, beginning of the year, I decided I wasn't drinking enough water, and bought a 1/2 gal pitcher. I now make sure I drink 3/4 gal of water during the day. Doesn't include what I drink at home after work.

    On the subject of stretching, I've been stretching after running for the past year. My daughter advised me to stretch after, and its been working so I see no reason to change. Decided to stretch calfs before since its quick and can't hurt.
    When I was doing PT, the first thing he would do is stretch and massage. Then I would do different exercises, then heat or cold to finish the session. I don't know if there was a reason for the order, but that's was the routine.

    On shoes, you guys made me remember past experiences finding a shoe I liked. Seems to get harder as I get older. Now I think I'll buy another pair of 990's.

    On calcium and/or magnesium deficiency, I had a comprehensive blood test couple months ago, calcium is fine, they didn't test for magnesium. Some things were high side of normal, but dr said everything was fine.

    For now, planning to use the elliptical for a little while longer, then give treadmill another try. Long term plan is to alternate instead of just the treadmill. Will also try adding some calf exercises into my morning routine.


    EDIT: Cramping. Only happened the one time, so I'm not focused on cramping right now.
    @zonto Just watched the dorsal flection video, and tried his test. My knee doesn't get close to the wall, so guess I have something else to work on.

    Randy
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2023

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