The vintage Ortho thread

Hey, you don't have to feel bad. There are really many things to be considered -- as I always emphasize huge grains of salt.

• My preference is a lot darker than SBAF median/mode (I think). Read some posts in the Clear Mg threads. I was the only dude who wholeheartedly raved Focal's new voicing (muted upper mids/lower highs).
• Apart from tonal balance which I think way more controllable on listeners' end, I really like how Aiwa headphones resolve and reproduce sound. I believe huge portion came from your effort to sort out all initial nastiness.
• I don't regard any of my measurements as showstoppers. They at worst indicate the need for additional calibrations for my taste. Distortions/CSD were hard to tell whether they're subjectively positive or negative. I am thinking the former. And I don't think I hear phase very clearly. They're only related to non-linear non-straightforward response in equalization (i.e., equalized response is no longer a simple multiplication of spl and transfer function amplitude), which could be overcome by iterative tries.
• Anyway, after DSP calibration on my end, the headphones did impress me a lot. The calibrated frequency responses below.
• I will collect more thoughts on how I think of them subjectively, but the very fact is I keep listening to many tracks. There are many favorable traits which I can't spell out exactly for now.

 

It's very easy to get used to brighter signatures if you have nothing to 'calibrate against'. Lots of people happy with their Beyers. I had my T50RPs modded towards a brighter signature when I started modding and it sounded 'correct' to me, I had experience with mid-fi pairs like the closed-back Audio Technicas and Grados that sounded harsh so I thought I had it right. It was until I had the chance to listen to headphones known for well-behaved treble (Senns) that the brighter sound became apparent. I can still tolerate FR that measures flat on a flat-plate coupler (if you compensate this against the SBAF target the FR looks like an upward slope), it sounds somehow 'correct' at higher volumes, but fatigue and a sense of lack-of-body start to creep in after a while.

Anyhow, glad you're taking this as a challenge, be safe and healthy.

 

@rhythmdevils Dont feel down. I appreciate your company, knowledge, and contributions to community going all the way back to HF days. Ill offer whatever I can to help you reacclimate. And will you not bother with speakers if too insufferable? Why cant you calibrate with just headphones? Just get phones that represent the standard or best in their respective strengths: mids/highs = HD650 / bass = TH900, planar and other styles of bass / and so on. Still not as good as speakers but speakers can be bad examples too in some regards like room modes, off-axis, resonance, etc. My speakers are a different presentation but not better. Just a newb thinking out loud trying to help - I dont know.

@Vtory I dont know what phase is in regards to headphones - Ill google. But here is Tyll’s measurements of a modded Aiwa HP-500 which also shows rich mids disortion.

edit: Do I have to send back my orthos? I was hoping to keep them longer to test anisotropic. Not T10 though - too small.

edit2: I could lend you a umik mic to measure your speakers from main listening position. Please forward mic and some orthos to @tommytakis

 

@rhythmdevils , could be all the IEM listening/comparing you have been doing lately. After I listen to BA IEM for more hour and then come back to regular HP's I note how much my brain has "adjusted" to the IEM/BA sound and everything else sounds off...

 

NAD RP18 (=Foxtex T50?) measurements taken and posted in this thread: https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...h-1-yh-3-orthodynamic.9208/page-4#post-344352

Both EQ-must for my tastes, but after dsp calibration I am unsure which one I like better. RP18 technically more capable whereas HP500 more rounded and relaxed.

 

By the way, here are eq profiles I am using for RP18 and HP500:

RP18:



HP500 (after several trials and errors I settled down with two filter sets for each channel)

 

Ortho Whore

(This isn’t all of them and doesn’t include all my tools, earpads and damping materials)

 

Do you have favorites?

 

The ones on his head

 

Dedamped YH-2 back down to stage one mod. The warmth n bass is more to my taste. The bass may no longer zip or extend but it’s worth the trade off for preferred tone. Just initial impression - I could change my mind later and try for driver’s full potential, but I dont know how to do that without making too bright. I think answer would need less damping materials sealed directly to back of driver and instead enclosure sealing + reflection control. Try later but want to listen as-is for a moment for better memory and later comparisons (mods, eta, rd2).

 

@dBel84 Told me that there were three different distinguishably different looking HP-2/YH-2 drivers. Apparently I have a rarer sort with chamfered magnet holes. The rarest being squared-holed. No information on sound. I quickly tried searching ortho round up but not so easy.

 

@dBel84 is actually kind of right. Since orthos so far sound shitty in stock form its all about potential. And since I’m going to retune all of them back to my previous target curve using my speakers as a reference that’s a bit up in the air at the moment. But here’s a list of the ones I see the most potential in. No particular order

• T50rp mk3
• T60rp
• LCD2 Classic
• HE6se V1 and V2
• Yamaha HP-1 Anistropic
• Fostex T-10

I also have an LCD-2F here which may have more potential than the classic. And an HE560 V4 Adorama edition which is an unknown. I hope to be able to mod higher end Audezes somehow. Or some othrrr TOTL orthos like the Abyss or others.

 

@rhythmdevils how loud do you normally listen?

Here's a quick graph comparing an unreleased DIY headphone I've been messing with vs the modded HP1a you sent. Yours is Yellow.



What's interesting here is that the net rise in the HP1a is about the same as the net downslope on one of my cans. A modded HD600 measures damn near perfectly flat save for some rolloff in the bottom end.

Anyway, both of the headphones in the graph above are smooth and have no narrow ridges. So I suppose both are equally as 'neutral', just on opposing sides of a 'normal curve' in a sense. That is, if it's true that a flat line is 'perceptually neutral' according to the SBAF comp curve - but to me that's highly dependent on listening level, which is why I mentioned it initially. I bet you listen quieter than I do given this type of tonal response. The clarity is exceptional at lower levels, the bass is well controlled, they resolve things like ambient cues and reverb trails effortlessly. I think it's disingenuous to say that there are ringing or control issues - I think they sound very smooth and dry (in a positive sense of there being no wetness or resonance I can perceive). But they also throttle my listening to about 75dB and down, especially with contemporary music. Which unfortunately would be a deal breaker for me if I were to purchase a headphone like this given my listening habits.

All of the cans you sent also show the broad 6k bump on my rig (which is also just an SBAF comp'd EARS rig). But the fact that it's broad and not far deviant from the general upsloping trajectory of the response means it doesn't really stick out much to me. The treble sounds kind of like an Andromeda IEM, just a bit better extended. I don't think the 10khz knee is as audible on the head, but I do think the top octave flattens out or slightly dims down relative to the upslope beforehand (which is a good thing in this type of response IMO). The bass doesn't sound rolled given the deficit doesn't steepen as we go deep down. But it is a touch lean. Probably good for decluttering live or muffled recordings.

I think it's a good start, but for me, I'd want to tilt the whole FR a few degrees down. Maybe not as far down as my own offerings just due to the (quite vibrant and sweet) timbre of these Yamaha drivers. But I have a sense of the RD sound, your voice within the headphone, and I appreciate that. I just think they could be a touch more accessible with a slightly less tipped response - probably more like what you can get with a Fostex planar or one of the modern Audeze/HFMs.

I'll be happy to share graphs of the other loaners you sent or overlays with any other headphones I have if you like. All of the headphones you sent actually measure quite similarly.

 

@E_Schaaf What sweep resolution (the number of samples in the sweep sequence) do you use for your measurements? I'm using 256K but roughness of your result curves seem a little shorter signal.

 

I use PR Pink noise at 48khz with 4096 FFT in ARTA. I figure PR Pink Noise is most like actual musical content vs sweeps (which obviously make more sense for distortion measurements). EARS gain at 0dB. It's pretty loud IRL at measurement level (around -10dB on the graph Y axis is like 90dB if I were to guess though I don't have absolute dB calibrated).

 

Mkay, first try here:

Printed using 95A Shore hardness TPU (flexible filament) @ 0.2mm layer height, the reasoning is that having a semi-flexible baffle would increase comfort.

Well, comfort is indeed better than a hard baffle, but still nothing to write home about, so how about sound?

The stock pads disintegrated long ago so I don't have a reference capture, but here's the FR measured using my ear-mounted microphone:

Stock dampening


Stock dampening + 1 cotton disk


Stock foam backing + 2 cotton discs


The dips @ ~7 KHz are measurement artifacts, clicks @ 60Hz are due to shitty power supply filtering, disregard.

At a glance it would seem that the stock dampening produces the smoothest down-sloping FR, however, the bump @ ~10KHz is subjectively very grating and the bass is very tame. Of the other two configurations I prefer the middle one, it consists of stock dampening + 1 cotton fabric disc (A material I previously mentioned it in this thread) right next to the driver.

Tried deeper pads and they all sucked.

I still think that this is not optimal, this driver likes sitting very close to your earholes for best plankton and least etch.

You can find the adapter here if you want to give it a go.

 

Pancake pads! One of my all time favorite pads for their dryness and immediacy in the mids with no weird peakage or ringing.

Do you have any issues with dynamics with a totally sealed front baffle? I tend to think a tiny bit of venting on the front (whether it's controlled via foam piece like a Fostex or simply via partial pad perforations) can help with transient clarity though any airway exit path that isn't filtered will roll off the bass.

On some headphones I'm working on, a trick I've found is to use a leather hole punch about 2.5mm in diameter to stamp a couple holes into the leatherette portion on the bottom of the pad ear cavity. So no exit path to the outside, but effectively opens up a bit more space for the frontwave pressure to vent without breaking seal. Helped with extension and presence in the top half in my case though there are other venting aspects at play too...

 

Yep, the idea was to recycle the thinnest pads in the box which were the stock T50RP mk3 pads. I always put holes in my baffles but this driver has such limited excursion that I thought it would do more harm than good. The stock sound has limited dynamics so I detected no ill-effects (at least with Jot 2, single ended), less dampening behind the driver frees some dynamics at the expense of distortion, a more etched sound and some bass bloom, maybe I will try very little dampening and put a couple of holes in the baffle to see how it goes. I've also done the earpad-vent trick which IME helps flatten upper mids, I didn't want less mids near the treble etch here.

 

I’m not sure how loud I listen but it’s not how I want them to sound that’s definitely not my target FR. I just made a mistake and I’m sorry I wasted your time but I promise to make it up to you with some goodies or fixed Yamahas.

This is my target FR but with better extended bass and treble. (The treble in vintage orthos has a rough tonality to it so I rolled it off intentionally with this mod but I have figured out how to get clean extended treble out of them since then)

(YH-3 I modded in about 2011)





@E_Schaaf see this post

My neutrality radar got scrambled from not being able to listen to music for 8 years and then only listening to iems for a year. Which are screwy. I will expand on my findings after listening to music with my reference speakers for a day in a bit. Revelatory!

 

YH-2mod1 = lost dynamics and definition in bass. Vocals a bit dim (2kHz dip).