Topping and SMSL with ASR Punking Us on DACs?

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by purr1n, Oct 23, 2022.

  1. Johnston98

    Johnston98 Facebook Friend

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    Yeah, ASR got that covered too.

    There was a big back and forth about food science and chemistry. Apparently there are machines that objectively measure flavor. So one could potentially rate Spago or Olive Garden Alfredo.

    Same with TVs and perfume. Hard core objectivists can be found sucking the fun out of about everything if you look hard enough.
     
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  2. Cloudphonics

    Cloudphonics New

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    Displays are an interesting comparison since the technology is comparatively immature on the image production side of things, leading to very obvious differences between differently measuring products vs much more subtle differences in audio. That then pairs with comparatively much more mature analysis capabilities(in many cases driven by a need to much more completely characterize a display in order to get it to actually function at all), allowing someone to quickly point to a specific spec directly leading to a specific quality of an image, for instance the smoothness of motion being linked to refresh rate vs audio where there’s either way more complexity to specific qualities like soundstage, or we just haven’t hit on what aspect of the signal should be measured.

    I wonder if in 20-30 years we’ll have people arguing over whether a 5khz display offers noticeably smoother motion than a 2khz, or debating whether the latest 32k pentile display is better than a 24k with a traditional rgb stripe(or if it matters at all) the way we see delta-sigma vs multi-bit debates in the audio world today.

    there is also certainly a level of subjectivity already in that space, particularly when it comes to digital processing with different camps preferring different techniques for things like upscaling (and niche industries popping up to serve sub-communities with unique needs there) and those arguments are certainly going to get much more heated as those techniques move from pretty straightforward algorithms over to machine-learning methodologies. That shift is going to coincide with an era where a lot of content people want to consume was either captured in much lower resolutions than the displays in use, or originally digitized at those lower resolutions and the original film lost/destroyed. I think it’s moderately likely that we see a shift to more qualitative marketing there just like we see today in various parts of high-end audio.
     
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  3. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    This doesn't surprise me because mass-production foods must have mass-production consistency checking. I'd expect, though, that there would be tiny samples that actually reach human tongues to check the checkers.

    I'd think, though, that what is being checked is consistency. That any single bottle of ketchup is within an acceptable "identical" to the other millions. It does not look for better or worse though?... just different.
     
  4. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    How about Hydrogenaudio?

    Hydrogenaudio does not accept a subjective claim of difference unless backed up with objectivity, beit numbers, blind-test acceptance, etc etc. I have not been there for many years, now. Somewhat guessing, I'd say it represents a more sane form of objectivism, because it is not hung up over one measurement, but accepts that there is more than one one way of being objective.

    I don't think it has anyone person setting themselves up as the supremo, either. Weirdest thing about ASR is that I wouldn't trust Amir to tell me the time, let alone say anything worth listening to about audio!
     
  5. Senorx12562

    Senorx12562 Case of the mondays

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    It's just a cult, albeit clearly not one of personality.
     
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  6. Tekker

    Tekker Facebook Friend

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    “Scientists don’t run away from things they don’t understand, they run towards them”

    -Bruce Greyson
     
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  7. Lyander

    Lyander Official SBAF Equitable Empathizer

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    I could be misremembering this but was there ever a quote from a guy opining that "everything that can be measured has been identified, the only thing now is to make finer and finer increments of accuracy" shortly before a new, theretofore-unheard-of force (was it gravity?) was identified? Might have been brought up in reference to ASR as well.
     
  8. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    Doritos as an example:
    https://clinicalnews.org/2013/10/02...ip-avoids-so-called-sensory-specific-satiety/

    There was another article I read once though I can't find it now that spoke more indepth about how the powder was ground ultra-fine which allowed it to dissolve more quickly, and it had an additive which made it absorb/react even faster with your tastebuds and chemical whatevers, all designed to create a primal reaction in your system before your brain even processed the flavours.
     
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  9. SoupRKnowva

    SoupRKnowva Official SBAF South Korean Ambassador

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    haha I also remember something like this, but I think it was like right before the discovery of quantum mechanics or something, he was like "yeah we know everything about physics now"


    EDIT: apparently it was Lord Kelvin right before quantum mechanics and relativity

    EDIT2: I guess its just attributed to him, but he never actually said it...and maybe no one actually said it lol
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2023
  10. bigjako

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    I think the original source of this 'meme' is Charles Duell, the Commissioner of the US Patent Office, who in 1889 said that the patent office would close because “Everything that can be invented has been invented."

    I think this is exactly what the ASRholes are doing. "All audio can be measured, we've reached peak measurement with FR graphs and that proves there's no difference between a dongle and a Holo May so therefore everyone who hears a difference is deluding themselves". Even hardcore scientists understand that there are discoveries yet to be made, advancements that will only come through the scientific method but these guys just believe the dogma of the cult of ASR.

    I once got in a Reddit argument when I claimed I could hear a difference (within a blind A/B test) between a Topping D90 and a BF2 - the response was the same you give to a mental patient - "I believe that you believe you can hear a difference, but the evidence is clearly that you can't" which is the equivalent of "I believe that you believe you're Napoleon, but the evidence is clearly that you aren't".
     
  11. Biodegraded

    Biodegraded Friend

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    FTFY.
     
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  12. Johnston98

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    I might've seen a thread on objective taste measuring in the Head-Fi Sound science forum as well.

    Anyway, bottom line, I believe the equipment was meant for what you are describing--consistency of product. Hopefully no hardcore objectivist gastrophile will bastardize the equipment to start comparing Chateau Margaux to Boone's farm.
     
  13. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

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    Amir understands and knows all. That’s the entire reason ASR exists: To disseminate the divine audio word.
     
  14. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    So, Amir is the one true prophet?

    I wish someone had had told me before: I thought he was just a self-obsessed arsehole.
     
  15. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

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    Potayto, potauto
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2023
  16. Huhnkopf

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    I agree in general, however in the case of ASR I think their population also has a very special high influx form Hardcore PC Gamer types that are fine to upgrade their quarterly SMSL with the latest and greatest like they upgrade their GPUs and are hellbent on "benchmarks", treating them in the same way as GPU scores. Longer=better, higher number but indiscernible in real world circumstances/real life=still valid to upgrade.

    Almost all SMSL/Topping users I personally know are from that corner and almost all of them don't do dedicated music listening like most here probably do, for the good or worse. Not trying to judge it but it really shows.
     
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  17. Tekker

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    Why the f**k does a “scientist” get credit when he is banned from all other previously established science sites?

    He’s a fraud according to his own statistics. By the simple fact that he is banned by more science based audio forums vs him not being banned.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2023
  18. bboris77

    bboris77 Friend

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    Just out of curiosity, which forums was he banned from and why?
     
  19. Case

    Case Anxious Head (Formerly Wilson)

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  20. Cloudphonics

    Cloudphonics New

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    The gamers should really know better, because PC performance is way more subtle than “longer bar better”.

    The obvious ones are things like games having broad swings between their top frame rates and their minimum. A game swinging from 20fps to 60 fps may average out to 40 but it won’t play as well as if it just sat at 30 fps all the time.

    But there’s also a concept of system synergy, with certain monitors working better with certain gpus.

    And most relevantly for this topic, micro stutter, which kind of came out of nowhere and absolutely ranked a whole technology, at least as it was being used for games. Around 07-08 nvidia (and to a lesser extent amd) was pushing the ability to run multiple gpus hard. On paper it provided a giant performance boost, and at the time gpus weren’t $1k+ products so it wasn’t uncommon to see 2 or even 4 cards in a system. But a few more discerning reviewers and gamers noticed that things didn’t seem to be running as smoothly as the reported frame rates suggested. The nerds then did as nerds will do and came up with ways to chart the actual render time of each frame, and found something unexpected - there was a, sometimes rather significant, delay happening every other frame. basically the “secondary” card was responsible for every other frame, and then had to copy its buffer over to the first card to be displayed, whereas the main card would just output its frames as soon as they rendered. This difference caused a weird appearance or objects in motion and in some sense would basically halve the frame rate of the machine. This was discovered years after the first SLI systems launched and kinda came out of nowhere and completely changed the market basically overnight with gamers switching from dual card systems to the biggest single card solutions they could find, and reviewers adding both micro-stutter numbers and frame-pacing metrics to their reviews. The fact that gamers can’t see the same thing could be happening in audio where there are differences that just aren’t showing up in the measurements because we’re not measuring the right thing, or are looking at the data in the wrong way, is kind of weird to me.
     
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