Topping and SMSL with ASR Punking Us on DACs?

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by purr1n, Oct 23, 2022.

  1. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    upload_2022-10-27_18-43-58.png

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    upload_2022-10-27_18-49-11.png

    What's the one single SINAD # of the above DAC to the tenth of a decibel?
     
  2. atomicbob

    atomicbob dScope Yoda

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    If you give the wizard $20K you may receive the 1st scroll of the audio gods which will help you reach your inner self and select the correct one.
     
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  3. Cooper32

    Cooper32 Facebook Friend

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    For us to be able to distinguish 2 UUTs to within 0.1 dB (+/- 0.05 dB), we'd need a calibrated instrument and measurement process with an uncertainty of 0.0125 dB (ideally proven from a gage R&R study) to maintain a test uncertainty ratio (TUR) of >= 4.

    I don't work with audio gear but, assuming an analyzer with such accuracy exists, I'd expect distinguishing between two amps to 0.1 dB would only be possible with careful process design and controls in place.

    Essentially, there's no way to tell 2 amps apart if the values are that close. ASR should practice some measurement science before making lofty claims on audio science.

    Edit: meant to say DACs to be in line with the first post in the thread but I guess what I said would also apply to amp measurements.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2022
  4. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Yes, but then there would be no reason for expensive toppings

    upload_2022-10-27_23-15-17.png

    [​IMG]
     
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  5. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

    Pyrate Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
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    The SNR has little to do with the perceived sound anyway. What about the image, transients, solidity of bass, exposure of different bass textures, forwardness, revealer of transient response of various equipment?

    Some gear might be more opaque for timbre but much more revealing of balance issues or punch or stereo issues. Yet most of these high end converters with a name brand on them and known to sound good and be pretty clean and NOT TRASHED BY THOSE IN THE KNOW FOR SOUNDING OR BEING BUILT LIKE CRAP (you know what brands) are pretty good. Only the weirdo cheapass shit, prosumer, and ridiculous audiophile and consumer bullshit gets weird. The bad shit is dog crap.

    These people judging gear by youtube videos or using them to listen to lossy sources? Just don't post.

    The lossy audio and video codecs MURDER the sound as bad as a poor converter. That's like judging the taste of food by being in The Human Centipede. Something with bass distortion from say a fast release on a compressor or shitty old transformer or a mic pre with shitty high frequency imd and nasty upper order harmonics can sound better streamed on youtube but might be disgusting on CD. The youtube codecs eat highs. The perceptive difference can be a the equivalent of a big high end lift to keep the same balance. Yes these lossy codecs need a totally different master to even have be perceived to have the same mix or even a totally different mix for depth cues. You want them to survive? Well that mix where you cranked the room mics or room reverb send up will not sound right on CD. The texture and weight can be totally different from CD. And people are judging a piece of equipment based on that? f**k OFF!
     
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  6. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    It was just One of Those Days (or weeks, perhaps) On The Internet.

    In those days, I was quite taken with the ideas of geniune objectivity, and followed hydrogenaud.io. Amir turned up and, as I have mentioned before, what followed was many, many pages of his self-obsessed, self-promoting, goal-moving crap. Of course, other members simply put him down, but he always bounced back. Our (hydrogenaud.io) mistake was to talk to him at all!

    Compare SBAF's reaction, when he turned up here. It amounted to, "Oh, it's you. No thanks. Bye." Which is really the only sane way to deal with people like him.

    Maybe he sincerely believes he's trying to change the world. If there is anything worse than a turd, it is a turd with a mission!
     
  7. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    Hmm, I guess that's why youtube doesn't sound too bad to me :(*.

    Hearing deficiencies aside, I always thought youtube audio reviews were a joke. Does it not even occur to those people that, youtube conversion aside, we are still listening through our own gear? Given their popularity, it would seem not. Lots of idiocy in the audio world: lots of idiots.


    *I can hear that youtube is better than facebook. Or I could a couple of years ago when covid forced music here out of the auditorium and on to the internet. I begged some people to use YT, not fb --- and when they started to do both I was able to compare and find out how right I was.
     
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    Last edited: Oct 28, 2022
  8. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    And some people will evaluate how good speakers sound by listening to a youtube video recorded on a phone playing through their laptop speakers...
     
  9. Johnston98

    Johnston98 Facebook Friend

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    I never understood how in any dimension that would work. Even if you use a high quality headphone chain, you’re still listening to a recoding via probably a mediocre mic played back by your headphone chain. :confused:
     
  10. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    Well, the laptop speakers have something your headphone chain doesn't, which is Dolby Atmos baked in :confused:
     
  11. atomicbob

    atomicbob dScope Yoda

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    I rarely hear the term gage R&R outside of engineering design, regulatory compliance, risk management, government contracts, etc. Consumer audio is more like the wild west with minimal regulations. Anyone with the money can own any measurement instrument. That doesn't automatically confer competency upon them. The crap being discussed in this thread would NEVER pass muster with any regulatory agency with which I have dealt.

    Now you have instilled a strong desire for pizza. Far more satisfying than any variety of the other topping.
     
  12. Cooper32

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    Agreed. Is it much to ask though to have a disclaimer saying something along the lines of: "These SINAD values provided are NOMINAL values. Due to analyzer and measurement uncertainty, the values may vary to +/- X.X SINAD." ????

    X.X being a conservative value, say 1-2 dB. I understand doing a true gage R&R is way overkill so X.X should be picked based on the mfg specifications for the analyzer and add some scale factor to be on the safe side.

    I'm referring to ASR adding a disclaimer on the first graph of the first post in this thread. Probably just a pipe dream, though.

    As shown right now, the graph is outright bullshit.

    [ I know, I know. It's ASR. We got no control over it. It just irks me the wrong way]
     
  13. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

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    ASR sells certainty, not accuracy.
     
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  14. Biodegraded

    Biodegraded Friend

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    And that certainty is a byproduct of Faith (note capital).
     
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  15. atomicbob

    atomicbob dScope Yoda

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    One more set of measurements for consideration.

    Here is a repeat of the measurement variations with individual screen shots rather than real-time screen recording. Left channel organized into increasing SINAD for visual convenience. Also signal generator has been set for 0 dBFS. Maximum performance readings.
    APx555 SINAD bench v2b.gif
    Observe readings from 141.545 to 141.747.

    This is the maximum Left ch SINAD from the previous gif. High performance signal generator was engaged.
    20221028 APx555 SINAD bench t8 747.png
    This is maximum performance. In the FFT note how the noise floor of -180 dBFS and NO spurious harmonics. Very impressive. Observe THD+N ratio of 0.000008% corresponding to SINAD of 141.7 dB
    Also note FFT y-axis lower limit of -190 dBFS.

    Setting up the dScope for a very similar bench mode with parameters set the same as the APx500 SW demo above such as
    48K sample rate for signal generator
    48K sample rate for analyzer
    32K FFT length
    Same y-axis range
    Digital loopback from signal generator to analyzer
    20221028 dScope SINAD 32K FFT 48K rect window.png
    While dScope digital generator produces a few spurs the noise floor is below -190 dBFS. More than 10 dB lower than APx500 SW.

    Now compare THD+N at 0.000001% instead of 0.000008%.
    Ability to measure SINAD greater than 160 dB or approximately 20 dB more than APx500 SW digital loopback.

    So when it comes to measuring things that don't matter, apparently I can achieve more resolution with the dScope than with an AP analyzer. Again, AP makes fine equipment. But so do many other vendors.
     
  16. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

    Pyrate Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
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    There is no certainty. Those are cherry picked units brand new. In a few months to a decade , they’re not the type of products to sound and measure the same or be easily repairable by a local tech.
     
  17. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    We know that.
    They may know that.
    Their members don't know that.
     
  18. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

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    I didn’t mean certainty as in this product is certain to be good, I meant they sell the illusion of certainty that people are buying the “best” product by overhyping a single measurement and then basically lying to get incrementally better results. That’s what I meant by certainty versus accuracy.
     
  19. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Marketing certainty. This is what ASR does.

    The irony is how Amir used to crap on Jason for his tongue-and-cheek ads, how he hated Schiit's marketing (now since scrubbed from the Internet). That dude (Amir) is a piece of shit, not an audio savior. I hope people start to realize this.
     
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    Last edited: Oct 29, 2022
  20. Azimuth

    Azimuth FKA rtaylor76, Friend

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    And SMSL has a new flagship DAC -

    6645B29F-EC78-4714-938C-DA958D28E366.jpeg
     

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