Troels Gravesen Faital 3WC-15 and Ellipticor A50-II

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by AdvanTech, Feb 3, 2021.

  1. AdvanTech

    AdvanTech Friend

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    Gonna need more information. Do you own NS1000s, or have you heard them?
     
  2. HIFI75

    HIFI75 New

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    Hello,
    no I have Technics sb10, quite linear like yamaha ns1000. but with a less good medium. 3-way 50 liters, closed, linear and analytic. and I'll be curious to listen to 3wc-15 and know if it's more immersive, more punch etc...
     
  3. AdvanTech

    AdvanTech Friend

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    Just looking at specs, I feel like it'd be quite a different kind of experience.

    87dB vs. 95dB efficiency
    3" vs. 8" mids
    10" vs 15" woofers

    Accompanying electronics would probably dictate how analytical the 3WC-15s could be. I've heard a wide spectrum from my amp-rolling journey.
     
  4. GeorgeNapalm

    GeorgeNapalm New

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    So I got Satori TW29RN-B-8 fabric tweeter and did some quick measurements to compare it to the beryllium one. Red line is BE version, green is RN. I didn't replace the capacitor to make up for lower sensitivity in the low treble, hence this drop around 3 kHz. The speakers got easier to listen, less shouty, but I might be missing some refinement up top. I'll try installing BE tweeter back and do some equalization for 6-7 kHz region to fix the shoutiness. Also EQ might help correct room artifacts in the bass.
    [​IMG]

    I'm currently using Naim Uniti Atom with it which I like, but it lacks any tone controls/eq. I'm building Elekit TU-8900 to use with Faital 3WC-15 and plan to use Raspberry Pi /Volumio + Bifrost 2 as a source. This should give me more flexibility.
     
  5. HIFI75

    HIFI75 New

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    With your T29RN have you tested C1 = 8.2
     
  6. GeorgeNapalm

    GeorgeNapalm New

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    @HIFI75, no, I decided to stick with BE tweeter: I like its openness and sparkling highs better. I’ll continue playing with associated equipment/ equalization to make the speaker more agreeable on some recordings.
     
  7. HIFI75

    HIFI75 New

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    OK, your measurements of the tweeter are made at what distance?
    It does not seem to have a passive correction of the tw29 as it was donc on the fusion (10-20k)
    Maybe i m wrong !
     
  8. GeorgeNapalm

    GeorgeNapalm New

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    You’re right, there’s no 10-20k correction for Faital 3WC-15 tweeter. I would guess it’s because the speaker target efficiency is 95dB for Faital vs ~91 for Fusion, so there’s no wiggle room to do any correction, since with passive you cannot raise 15-20k area, only suppress the other areas which ultimately bring overall level down.
     
  9. AdvanTech

    AdvanTech Friend

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    [​IMG]

    My speakers were quite tight in the 10’x9’ room I’d had them in (they were nearly up against the corners), so I was excited to get them in the 21’x17’ room of the new apt I’m moving into.

    I set them up on Friday expecting to tweak and tweak but I was not prepared for how disappointing the first few songs I played sounded. 100hz and down seemed to be gone at my listening position, and treble seemed muted. It no longer sounded big and dynamic. It sounded dull, meek, and kind of small.

    First thing I did on Saturday was pick up a sub to fill in the bass null I seem to be sitting in/near, but it still didn’t sound as engaging as I’d wanted it to sound.

    Thankfully, @Darkstar1 came over to push me into trying some new things. I invited him to come over and lend his fresh ears to the setup and he quickly told me to pull my speakers out farther from the front wall than I was comfortable with. He also told me to try toeing them in more than I’d thought to (being almost against the sidewalls in my old room made me get used to almost no toe in). I realized I still don’t know shit about shit.

    I suddenly felt these speakers disappear better than I’ve heard. Front-to-back layering makes sounds seem to emanate from points in mid-air behind, and up to, the speakers. Sounds can also come from beyond the right and left edges of the speakers now that they have more breathing room, and the more aggressive toe in has brought back imaging focus and bite to the treble. The music seems engaging and enveloping again.

    An interesting side effect of this more 3D soundstage is that I seem to be able to follow reverb tails better as they play out. I’m enjoying all this new spatial resolution and have been going through my favorite songs for hours and hours all weekend. With some furniture and some treatment, micro detail and shading seem to be easy to pick out in the room (easier for brain to ignore later reflection times vs my old room?) and there’s still more absorptive and diffusing pieces to come. I’m looking forward to enjoying it more and sharing it with friends.
     
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    Last edited: Jun 27, 2022
  10. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

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    A number of years back, my biggest revelation and improvement in the sound of my speakers was from pulling them out about 2.5 feet from the wall behind, and giving them lots of toe-in (aimed slightly outside my shoulders). The soundstage depth and more precise imaging was amazing, and in addition, it also helped the tonal balance and lower the early reflections from the sidewalls significantly (to the point that I don’t really feel I need to treat the sidewalls because it makes the sound too dull).

    I realize you may not have this option, but moving your seating position back and forth can also have significant affects on this as well, and also help to dial in the bass nulls/peaks at your seating position. Luckily I had a dedicated room where I could put the listening chair wherever I wanted, but in living rooms obviously that can sometimes be impossible or very awkward looking. However if you have any freedom there, you may want to experiment with that as well.

    This is also one reason why a sub can make a lot of sense in some rooms, because it’s easier to dial in the bass by moving the sub to places you could never move the speakers or seat (not to mention the ability to adjust the phase and level). However sub integration with main speakers can also be its own beast, especially without measurements or room correction to help out.
     
  11. Darkstar1

    Darkstar1 Facebook Friend

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    Advantech thanks for inviting me over. Your system is amazing. It inspired me to build a DIY First Watt Aleph J. Thanks for introducing me to Rockna Wavelength. It has me really enjoying 2 channel again.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2022
  12. sphinxvc

    sphinxvc Gear Master (retired)

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    I had a chance to go over and listen to @AdvanTech's rig while visiting NY, and I can say this system has hit a difficult-to-hit mark for me: it has the resolution and attack you would want from a studio-caliber rig, but all-day listenability too.

    Based on some of the reviews I'd read here, I expected an intensity to the balanced Wavedream signature, but it ended up sounding just right to me. The Wavelight always sounded a bit lubricated in its presentation, and I'm guessing that the 'easy listening' quality others have said the non-Signature WD has is not only somewhere in between, but also something you'd only notice in comparison.

    I also have to give props to @AdvanTech for the way he's gone about putting his rig together. I'm not sure I know anyone else in this hobby who really tries to make their gear work for them more. All tweaks are explored, every avenue, no matter how pious or heretical. Sometimes it doesn't work out, and stuff gets sold. Other times the upgrades are counterintuitive, for example the Be tweeter swap for the soft dome. That's where the pay off of this approach is. And of course, many times things just get bloody expensive like in the case of the Wavedream. Any which way, it's smart and refreshing.
     
  13. AdvanTech

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    [​IMG]

    I've spent a lot more time with my system in my new apt, and have made a few changes.

    I've replaced my Wavelight with a Wavedream Signature BAL. There's now more resolution and more aggression and bite. Things aren't as laidback and smoothed over as with the Wavelight, though I could see someone potentially choosing a Wavelight over a Wavedream to better suit/compensate for the rest of their chain.

    At first, I was afraid of using the Wavedream's digital volume control, having a Goldpoint doing the heavy lifting. Some members here told me to try taking the Goldpoint out of the chain and I'm glad I did. There is something subtly off about what the Goldpoint does to the signal, and my brain felt a touch of relief hearing music without it. It just sounded more right, as minor a difference as it made.

    It would have been nice to keep the chain so simple, but the combination of the hot balanced output out of the DAC, the gain of the Pass amp, and the efficiency of my speakers meant I was having to digitally attenuate >40dB. Not ideal, so I found a used icOn 4PRO balanced pre. This AVC with quad slagleformers does the trick. Seems extremely transparent and no dynamics are lost. Having a remote is really nice, too. Extremely low bang-for-the-buck, but hopefully its something I keep and use forever.

    I'd have to say the biggest improvements have been free, just by fudging with positioning. The speakers are much farther out from the walls than they were, which helped bring more energy into the midrange. Comparatively, mids were a bit more recessed and sleepy when closer to the front wall. Bringing the sub out from a corner and up to the side couch sounded like taking it out of the mud. Transients are much snappier and textures don't get lost, anymore.

    After a few years with these speakers, my sober opinion sans new toy syndrome:
    • I'd have to say the mids are the star, here. Having these great 8" woofers handle the important part of the music is nice.
    • The ring radiator tweeters are smooth and easy-going (which is my preference) though I know some people would prefer more energy or sparkle up top. The Beryllium tweeters previously in these cabinets were impressive in how they resolve details/separation/space and I get why people would prefer it, but I just couldn't listen to them all day and night.
    • The 15s are more light and agile than boomy, though I'm not sure how much of this bass character is coming from the woofers themselves and/or from my lower-powered amp (rated 30w). You can definitely tell where my main 15s transition into the subwoofer's range because the lowest octave-and-a-half have a noticeably firmer grip and punch. If you were to listen to these floorstanders for the first time here in my room, I'd say they're probably the least impressive part of the speaker presentation, especially now that they aren't corner-loaded like they were in my tiny-ass old room. Reinforcement from a sub was definitely required, here.
    • In my old room I used to think these speakers were extremely dynamic but, now that they have much more space to breathe, I wouldn't want to settle any less dynamics and sense of scale. I can only imagine how little my old bookshelves would be able to pressurize this space and recreate the dynamics of real instruments in a reasonably life-like way. If I switch speakers, I'd probably be looking for even more woofer surface area and/or horn-loading. I probably couldn't go back to small/skinny speakers, now.

    [​IMG]
     
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    Last edited: Feb 1, 2023
  14. AdvanTech

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    For better or worse, I've listened to a few different rigs in the last few months and had some friends over to listen to my rig, and I've been made aware of (or at least suspect) certain things about my Pass amp. After visiting the Oswald Mills Audio showroom and hearing some spectacular multi-chassis SET amps to equally impressive speakers, I couldn't seem to ignore what I thought was this kind of MOSET mist from the Pass.

    I'd heard good things about Luxman, recently, so I picked up a used L-590AXII to see if bi-polar transistors might bring some relative clarity to my system (and I also had some fond memories from the bi-polars in the Pioneer M-22 I had some years ago). It's an integrated amp with a class A amplifier section rated at 30w, like my XA30.8. I made sure the line straight mode was switched on, bypassing the tone and balance controls.

    I imagine Pass is maybe like a big luxury Mercedes on high profile tires. Thicker in bass/mids, though extension at both ends are softened. Big fat soundstage (for solid state), if a bit ethereal. Not HD800 diffuse, but in that direction. A light mist over everything. Kind of a gentler, warmer overall sound. I could see one person's description of this amp being pleasant and warm while another describes it as lifeless and veiled.

    Luxman feels like one of the faster models. Stage isn't as grand and enveloping, though more focused/precise. It sounds like it plays music straighter with more clarity and less overt wetness, so you feel more of the road (and hear more into the recording spaces). Better dynamics, bite, articulation, snap, detail. Coherence between sub and the 15s on my mains seems better with the Luxman's better grip on them. I was afraid the extra transparency and extension at both ends would be fatiguing but I think there’s this touch of sweetness (what @purr1n calls organic?) from the Luxman that makes it easily digestible. Like an AMG in comfort mode? I also noticed that higher energy music had me wanting to move. The Pass didn’t have the drive to do that to me. Swells and crescendos seem to surge with more strength and power.

    I just sold my AVC preamp as well as the XA30.8 because I like the convenience of less boxes and the Luxman remote. I think the Luxman is better for the livelier more clear-eyed direction I wanted to take my rig but I can understand people choosing the Pass for a more relaxing and laidback kind of sound (though at the cost of outright transparency).

    edit - But to be clear, the Luxman is easily more transparent and digs deeper into recordings. By many metrics, it's a better amplifier.

    [​IMG]
     
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    Last edited: Feb 20, 2023
  15. AdvanTech

    AdvanTech Friend

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    Put up a trippy parametric panel between the speakers. There's a bit better localization and soundstage focus but the visual impact is probably much larger. This'll probably be my last post of these 3WC-15 before they're replaced with a similarly-sized Troels design that's currently being built.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  16. M3NTAL

    M3NTAL Friend

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    I can't imagine how those sound in mid-field like that. Must be immersive.
     
  17. AdvanTech

    AdvanTech Friend

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    Yeah, I'm in a garden/basement apt so the ceiling height is a bit constraining, but it still sounds pretty big. If you're ever in NYC, feel free to hit me up for a listen!
     
  18. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

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    DTQWT-mkIII-212, hopefully!
     
  19. Cspirou

    Cspirou They call me Sparky

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    :cool:
     
  20. AdvanTech

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