Tube Vs. Solid State

Discussion in 'Power Amps' started by shaizada, Nov 23, 2016.

  1. tomchr

    tomchr MOT - Neurochrome

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    I skimmed the figures and will read the text later (probably Sunday as I'm swamped until then). Initial impression: The author did nothing to optimize for noise, so I'm not surprised by the differences in noise floor. The noise floor is basically the thermal noise of the impedances in the bias network and anode/collector/drain load. It may be mentioned in the text (that I haven't read) but it would be interesting with a better apples-to-apples comparison. I.e. same bias current, same impedances – or fully optimized for both noise and distortion. 2N2222 is not exactly known for its linearity. Just saying... :)

    Tom
     
  2. RedFuneral

    RedFuneral Facebook Friend

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    Here's a new theory, based on physical structure tubes amplify(preserve?) noise differently than transistors. This doesn't appear something which could be emulated. I believe this would relate to subjective impressions of blackground and a more room filling sound.
    http://www.psaudio.com/article/whats-the-warmth-in-tube-amps/
     
  3. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Not all tube gear sounds tubey, warm, lush, bloomy, wet, reverby, etc. A few of you guys really need to get past this.

    That's bullshit. Excess 2nd or even order harmonics sounds like mushy shit and nothing like concert hall reverb. You won't get that argument from anyone here. At least I that's what I would hope.

    That being said, distortion below a certain point isn't audible. And low distortion does not necessarily mean great sounding.

    I haven't found this to be the case. I'd say if there was any loose correlation, it would be the opposite.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2017
  4. FallingObjects

    FallingObjects Pay It Forward

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    I don't know enough about engineering or physics to hazard a guess as to whether one will be ultimately the 'winner' or not down the road, but right now I think anybody's best bet is just doing research, and trying before you buy. Entirely ignoring solid state or tubes and discrediting them as a whole only does one person a disfavor, because now you've gone and limited your possibilities.

    I've heard bad solid state amps, and bad tube amps. I don't think it's a matter of even Solid State vs Tubes. Personally, I think it's a matter of whether marketing/sales is taking you for a ride, whether they drink their own kool-aid or not.
     
  5. elguapo

    elguapo Gringos falling from the skys

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    This has been my experience as well. In fact, my two channel amp is a non-tubey tube amp.

    I do find there is a difference in sound between tube and solid state, though, and I wish I had a better grasp on what the cause of this difference was.

    Edit: One obvious reason might be that I've never heard a great solid state amp.
     
  6. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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  7. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Distortion adding up to soundstage perception sounds a bit fishy to me.

    FWIW, reverb AFAIK is a linear operation.
     
  8. tomchr

    tomchr MOT - Neurochrome

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    Funny. I just received that link from someone else. Unfortunately, the author's claims are founded in marketing – not physics.

    I almost gave up reading after equation 1 as it is fundamentally wrong. Thermal noise (as you probably know already) is: en^2 = 4kTR, where k is Boltzmann’s constant, T is absolute temperature (K), and R is the resistance. The unit is volt-squared per hertz (V^2/Hz). If you want it integrated over a specific bandwidth, it’s: en^2 = 4kTRB, where B is the bandwidth. The unit is volt-squared (V^2). Take the square root to work out the RMS voltage.
    “Conduction noise only exists in semiconductors”. Really?! What he’s talking about is shot noise. That’s the noise caused by the movement of carriers as in a current. Shot noise is white, just as thermal noise is, and proportional to the current: in^2 = 2qi, where q is the elementary charge and i is the current. Unit: ampere-squared per hertz (A^2/Hz). It exists in vacuum tubes too.
    “Our phono preamp has the best SNR in the industry”. Really? Doug Self’s RIAA Preamp is 16 dB better.

    Tom
     
  9. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Oh gawd, please don't post sciency audio white paper links from vendors' sites, especially PS Audio.
     
  10. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    That's about the same feeling I get when I see magic cabling metallurgy claims. I remember a couple years back when I was still actively working with electron microscopes, I made a semi-serious offer to do some actual imaging and microanalysis (both compositional and structural) of whatever magical materials people could send me. No one took me up on the offer.
     
  11. Grahad2

    Grahad2 Red eyes from too much anime

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    I remember someone actually sent Crystal Piccolo (I think) for elemental analysis and posted the lab report.
     
  12. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    If you could find the link, that would be awesome. A general compositional analysis wouldn't be very useful, but a line-scan across grain boundaries or map showing precipitates and other microstructures would be interesting.
     
  13. Energeezer

    Energeezer New

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    Very interesting thread. A good portion of it way over my head even though I have a relatively good understanding of basic electronics.
    Earlier in the thread there was discussion of tubed pre amps and thier integation. I've been into audio for over 40 years. For the last 10 I've used a tubed pre amp. I wont say it is better or worse than SS. It does add a measure of flexibility with the ability to change the sound ( to your personal liking) with tube selection/rolling.
    If I introduce a new component, say a dac, and I like the sound but identify a weakness to my ears I may be able to correct or minimize it with different tubes. Sometimes the new tubes introduce another trait of dislike while correcting the first but occasionally magic will happen. By magic I guess I mean synergy.
    It is another measure of flexibility and if you enjoy experimenting it adds another dimension to the fun.
     
  14. Rotijon

    Rotijon Friend

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    Anyone here have experience with the Leben CS600 and can recommend a tube?
     
  15. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Not a big fan of it. It's better than the CS300 though. Slower more romantic sound. Too smoothed and glossed over for my tastes. It can work in the right chain though. You have to have an idea what you want to acheive.

    I'd run American vintage 6L6s. Not a big EL34 fan.
     
  16. Nbees

    Nbees Acquaintance

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    Most tube amps I've herad or used do make things hang in the air longer. This might be related to some tube amps slower speed of power, or slew rate. When Bob Carver tried to emulate a tube amp with a solid state design, he made the slew rate slower than typical solid state amps, and it also had higher levels of distortion. It did not really sound like a tube amp though, and these days Carver makes tube amps. The closest I got to tube sound was class A solid state.
    also made certain harmonic distortion higher.
     
  17. k4rstar

    k4rstar Britney fan club president

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    No. It is related to tubes rendering properly what most solid-state cannot: transients, decay and other ambient information existing in the recording.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2017
  18. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

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    Remarkably, simple class A bjt amp(like modern JLHood) sounds more similar to big boy opt SET than to class A-B transistor amp, very generally.
    Even hybrid using push-pull output transistor stage (like my own built super Ehha) differs more from SET than JLHood, this caught me my pants down.
    Just another example how whole circuit matters more than the consisting parts. That said, I don't think any silicon based class A can touch totl SET. Maybe some clever silicon and opts combo, like Macintosh and what ECP is up to.

    I'm more sure than ever that class A-B output amps lack in microdynamics (indistinct and confused in trailing sounds and even macro transients), but in hybrid conf at least do well in macro scale slam, and can sound fast. I maintain that microdynamics contribute to soundstage precision, which is probably why class A has nicer soundstage, too.
    Most people are not as critical about dynamic scale graduations (I mean proportionality of it) as myself (also reason why I dislike planars), but this is where pure class A shines and A-B craps pants. A-B stuff tend to compress things into loudness, bringing soft sounds closer to loud sounds. They do not lack slam though, if well made. All relatively to SET, of course. On their own I don't mind some class A-B output amps. In some occasions there is little choice, for driving large bass speakers for example, class A might not cut it. Other than that and saving our planet, class-A all the way, tubes or otherwise. I'm glad that I took up the journey to discover class A ss. More peace in my mind.
     
  19. richard51

    richard51 Mr. Sorbothane

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    Sansui go on for almost 50 years in audio and the goal for their last 30 years was reproducing their best tube amplifier sound (1965) in a solid state version(1995), they accomplish that after more than 30 years of continuous research... Name one company in audio that have the same goal for 30 years ? Not an indefinite improvement goal, nor a general one, but a very difficult task and precise one, finally accomplished just before their bankrupcy.....Read that review... this is astounding...

    http://www.sansui.us/issues_AU111vsAL907MR.htm

    By the way i enjoy now a solid state amplifier whose sound is for me tubelike, i will not name it, but you can guess it, and i will sell another one, a tube amplifier whose sound, with plenty of different tubes was for me more solid state sound than tube... Perhaps i dont know what is the sound of suppose S.S. versus tubes... Perhaps there is not so good tube amplifiers and perhaps there is some extraordinary good tubes amplifiers and perhaps there is some extraordinary solid state amplifiers and less good ones.... Perhaps when i like the sound i call it tubelike...Perhaps when the sound is too much analytical i call it s.s. Perhaps there is only very good amplifiers and less good ones, now, at the end ?....






    Sansui Best Tube amplifier versus Best Sansui solid state amplifier


    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2017
  20. k4rstar

    k4rstar Britney fan club president

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    These are outer or "macro" details and it's a misconception to conflate them with low-level information or resolution. They appear more clearly through your solid state amp as the Ember in specific is hazy and lacks focus. Compare this to something like a Jotunheim which is very sharp and sculpted but throws outer detail in your face with its weird tonality and stage. Sabre DACs are also known for this.

    Regarding what low-level information encompasses in specific:
    1. Harmonics, which identify instruments as unique and are why we can tell a trumpet is a trumpet and not a french horn
    2. Decay, of individual notes (fundamentals) and their associated harmonics
    3. Sense of ambiance and space, part of that "you are there" feeling, has nothing to do with hearing footfalls or chairs squeaking although such noises are intentionally left in the mix
    4. Separation or lack of homogenization of all of the above. Homogenization leads to boredom and fatigue and is the crux of why solid-state and digital gear is ultimately less "involving"
    5. Micro-dynamics, which have been defined ad nauseam on this forum

    Some solid-state can do some of this some of the time, but such products are rare within head-amps and never to the degree of good or even mediocre tubes. You can use it to pick apart a recording in a mechanical sense but not evaluate it as a unique and human event. It also frustrates some people painfully when you tell them that none of the above can be scientifically measured to any useful degree, but those who have heard it become hooked and understandably never want to go back.

    An interesting theory about measurements is if you want to accept that the aspect that makes musical reproduction truly unique and distinguishable is the presence of low-level information, is it safe to say such information is being reproduced by the first watt alone? The first 1/1000th of a watt? How about the first millionth of one watt? After all, these soft sounds all exist 20-30dB below a 80dB peak/accumulated loudness listening level. Who measures what happens with an amplifier at such low power levels? This is also why moar power does not equal better, especially when it comes to sensitive loads like headphones and efficient speakers.

    I'm not going to go into how much I think the Eikon sucks. It's off-topic and I've talked about it before.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2017

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